Saga The story versus the story telling...

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by DarthPoppy, Dec 22, 2010.

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  1. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    Indeed.
    Absolutely. He was the stand-out performer of the OT for me (though McDiarmid was so good in ROTJ, he did threaten to trump that with his mere 20 minutes of screen time).
  2. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    I have a theory that Natalie Portman was sexy from the moment she was a zygote. [face_mischief]
  3. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4


    Have you ever seen her in "THE PROFESSIONAL" with Jean Reno and Gary Oldman? She must have been 12-13 years old at the time she shot the film.




    Upon further viewings of the original trilogy I actually came to appreciate Mark Hamil's performances the most. I actually think that guy is a pretty darn good actor.


    Although I found him slightly annoying in ANH and TESB, I was impressed by him in ROTJ. Hell, I think he practically carried that last film, considering that Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford seemed to be phoning it in. And poor Billy Dee Williams had lost his edge. And I think he was a better actor than Ford at the time.
  4. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    Great thread. As a longtime PT gusher, I have always respected the criticism that the PT story is not executed well. And I would admit that it is not executed quite as well as the OT story. Though I would argue that considering the more clustered nature of the plot, it does a fairly good job.

    I have never respected the criticism that the PT is just overblown with visual effects and no story. Just because you dont like the overabundance of effects is no excuse to pretend that there is no story. And, you know, I will admit that a few times Lucas goes to far even for me with the effects. Im thinking specifically of the lava surfing in the Mustafar duel.
  5. Jedi_Corin_Daan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2010
    star 3
    The prequels have a very compelling and engaging story. I think that Lucas tried to cover too much ground, though, and the story was not told quite as well as it could have been. Particularly with Episode III. I think there were also a lot of inconsistencies between the new and old films. In particular, Yoda was called Obi-Wan's master when the PT shows Qui-Gon as his master. Also Leia remembered some images and feelings of her mother, whereas Luke didn't, indicating that she had spent a least a little time with her. However the PT shows Padme dying after giving birth, allowing no time for memories to form.
  6. DarthWolvo23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2005
    star 4
    Very quickly

    Yoda trained Obi Wan when he was a youngling

    Leia remembers Padme through the Force (same way Luke 'remembers' Dagobah)

    Done and done

    ;)
  7. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    I have always argued that the amount of ground Lucas tried to cover in the prequels could and maybe should have been four films, rather than three. I think things might have played a little better. I agree that the OT is a much more simplistic and condensed tale. The PT has to rush through some things much more quickly and a bit more awkwardly as a result. ROTS in particular suffers from this towards the end in my opinion.
  8. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Disregarding hypothetical EU sources which might say otherwise, it's still possible that Yoda trained Obi-Wan in a typical ( non-youngling ) master-padawan situation before Qui-Gon took over at some point.
  9. VadersPappy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2009
    star 1
    Darth Wolvo

    Wrong and wrong

    First, if Leia can remember Padme through the Force, why can't Luke? Is it because she spends a few more seconds inside the womb than Luke did?

    Second, how can Luke "remember" Dagobah, since he had never been there before? He received a Force vision, just like he had a Force vision of Bespin before visiting there.

  10. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    No, it has nothing to do with that.
  11. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I agree. The heroes journey of the OT is a simpler concept than the Tragedy of a heroes fall and the crumbling of the old world (it's some sort of Götterdämmerung). But complexity isn't necessarily better. The art often lies into converting a complex story into something simple. To identify the essence of the conflict and show it to the audience. The PT is bogged down with too much themes, it tries to tell everything at once and that doesn't work. Imo it would have helped to concentrate on two themes: Anakins fall and the Rise of the Empire.
  12. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    Desperate rationalisation from both of you.

    You will go to the Dagobah system.
    There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi master who instructed me.


    The Jedi Master, not a Jedi Master, or 'one of the Jedi Masters'.

    The implication is clearly that Obi-Wan had one Master, & one only. It's implied, yes, not stated, but it's there to emphasise the power of this Jedi Master that Luke is meant to seek out - someone more powerful & wise than the wisest & most powerful character included in the story up to that point. The idea that this person was basically a kindergarten teacher now & then just doesn't work.
  13. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    If we were to assume that Obi-Wan was apprenticed to Yoda at some point before being apprenticed to Qui-Gon, his skill level would have been closer to Luke's at that point. It may be that Ben's comment reflects this fact.
  14. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Don't get me wrong. I enjoyed the OT very much. It has an ideal style of storytelling that most people love. And I love it as well. But I'm glad that Lucas had jettisoned it for the PT. That kind of storytelling didn't belong in the PT. And the morally complex storytelling and characterization in the PT really appeals to me . . . especially as I get older. There is only so much of the idealism that dominates the OT that I can take . . . especially in today's movies.



    The heroes journey of the OT is a simpler concept than the Tragedy of a heroes fall and the crumbling of the old world (it's some sort of Götterdämmerung). But complexity isn't necessarily better. The art often lies into converting a complex story into something simple. To identify the essence of the conflict and show it to the audience. The PT is bogged down with too much themes, it tries to tell everything at once and that doesn't work. Imo it would have helped to concentrate on two themes: Anakins fall and the Rise of the Empire.


    That is what Lucas did. Complexity may not be necessarily better. But complexity is NOT necessarily worse, either. Complexity, as far as I'm concerned, suited the darker tale of the PT. What did you want? Would you have preferred if the fall of the Republic happened, despite the efforts of the Jedi? Did you want the Jedi, the Senate and characters like Padme spend the entire trilogy making the right choices and still end up being destroyed by Palpatine and Vader?

    Is that what you wanted? A simplistic, one-dimensional tale in which the good guys ARE NOT partially responsible for their downfall? I hope not. But if so, I thank God that Lucas didn't give us that kind of tale. That kind of storytelling is nothing more than bad writing and characterization in my opinion.



    The implication is clearly that Obi-Wan had one Master, & one only. It's implied, yes, not stated, but it's there to emphasise the power of this Jedi Master that Luke is meant to seek out - someone more powerful & wise than the wisest & most powerful character included in the story up to that point. The idea that this person was basically a kindergarten teacher now & then just doesn't work.


    Dude, I think that you are REALLY splitting hairs in this statement. I think that you really are. This is one of your reasons why the writing in the PT is supposed to be worse? Really?
  15. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Well, no. I think you misunderstand me. Simplifying doesn't mean you dumbify your story. It means, you cut stuff that doesn't add anything significant to it. I can think of a lot of stuff that was unnecessary. The Syfo-Dias riddle. The first battle of the war (Geonosis). R2-D2 und C3PO running around in the droid factory. Obi-Wans fight against Grievous. Jar-Jars scenes. The podrace. And so on.

    What I would want? Actually, a good comparison is the Godfather. It is a similar story if you think about it. The death/replacement of the old ruleship and the fall of a hero. Almost each and every scene in that movie hat something to do with those two main themes, and it worked great. Plus it's a psychologically complex movie.
  16. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Well, no. I think you misunderstand me. Simplifying doesn't mean you dumbify your story. It means, you cut stuff that doesn't add anything significant to it. I can think of a lot of stuff that was unnecessary. The Syfo-Dias riddle. The first battle of the war (Geonosis). R2-D2 und C3PO running around in the droid factory. Obi-Wans fight against Grievous. Jar-Jars scenes. The podrace. And so on.



    Are you saying that only the PT had scenes that were unnecessary . . . and the OT didn't? Are you? Because if you are, I would disagree with you.

    I'm sorry, but I get the feeling that this thread is simply ANOTHER attempt to vilify the PT. That's all many STAR WARS fans seem to do. And on this board, they think of many ways and many threads to shove this opinion . . . that the OT was superior to the PT . . . down the throats down the throats of those who actually admire the PT. Now, I realize that most STAR WARS fans believe that the OT is superior. But I get the feeling that these same fans seem incapable of accepting that not "all" STAR WARS fans believe this. And these PT bashers utilize these constant ways to get those who admire the PT to change their tune.



    What I would want? Actually, a good comparison is the Godfather. It is a similar story if you think about it. The death/replacement of the old ruleship and the fall of a hero. Almost each and every scene in that movie hat something to do with those two main themes, and it worked great. Plus it's a psychologically complex movie.


    As far as I'm concerned, so are both trilogies of the STAR WARS movies. Actually, I find the PT more psychologically complex than the OT. But I love all six movies . . . despite their flaws. I love the GODFATHER movies, despite their flaws.
  17. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    What scenes would you say were unnecessary in the OT? Aside from freeing Han in ROTJ, but ROTJ was the worst of the bunch anyway and I'd rate ROTS higher. Take ANH. I can barely think of any scene in that Movie that didn't tell us something important about the charakters or the setting or moved the plot forward.

    Attacking my motives instead of my arguments is an ad hominem.

    Yes, the PT has some psychological complexity, mostly focused around Anakin and Palpatine. What it is lacking is mostly focus.
  18. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    I am also of the opinion that there is a lot of fat that can afford to be cut from the meat of the PT.

    I am a fan of some of the fan edits out there that have made the PT far more watchable (IMHO). Some of these edits have cut most of the cringe-worthy dialogue and unnecessary sequences, and have successfully sped up the lagging story. Some have even changed characters (and/or plotlines) altogether into something more interesting. It's strange, but somehow watching the fan edits has made me a bigger fan of the PT.
  19. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    This reminds me of a conversation I had with a buddy of mine. We were talking about how sexy Natalie Portman is, and I mentioned that I first noticed her hotness when I saw her promoting "Beautiful Girls"-- and I was embarrassed to admit it because she was only 15 at the time and I was an adult. He then replied, "That's nothing. I've liked her since "The Professional"! I laughed pretty hard.
  20. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Could you point me to some? I'd very much appreciate that.
  21. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    There are quite a few good ones on fanedit.org. I think my favorites for the PT are by an editor that goes by the name "Magnoliafan", specifically "Episode I: Balance of the Force", and "Episode II: The Clone War". He hasn't finished work on Episode III yet.

    The OT have some good edits as well, the best of which are probably by "Adywan".

    I managed to find torrents to download, but most of these are also available in parts on YouTube.


  22. Gobi-1 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 22, 2002
    star 5
    I'm a huge fan of the prequels and I enjoy them as much as the original trilogy but I'm inclined to agree that the back story of the prequels was too much for three films. When reading The Making of Empire Strikes Back I was intrigued to see a proposed outline for the series that would have put A New Hope as Episode 6 followed by the original trilogy. When laid out the series looks like this:

    Prologue - Episode 1
    Clone Wars Trilogy - Episode 2, 3 and 4
    Epilogue/Prologue - Episode 5
    Star Wars Trilogy - Episode 6, 7, and 8
    Epilogue - Episode 9

    This structure would have been ideal. The Phantom Menace remains as it is, a one shot story about Young Anakin. Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith now bookend a new film set entirely during the Clone Wars. A transitional film set during the Dark Times bridges the gap between trilogies. The original trilogy remains uneffected and the entire saga is brought to a close with another stand alone film about Old Luke reestablishing the Jedi Order.

    It's a really interesting what if. A forth film about Anakin Obi-Wan would have really strengthen the friendship between the two characters. The Obi-Wan Anakin dynamic in the opening of RotS is fantastic and I would have loved to seen an entire film with them swashbuckling across the galaxy. Thankfully the Clone Wars animated series is doing a wonderful job of exploring this point in time that Lucas condensed for the prequels.

    I think if Lucas had wrote all three prequel scripts at once he could have balanced the story a bit more and not had to cram so much in RotS. Still I think the prequels work quite well and have a interested story to tell.
  23. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    This structure would have been ideal. The Phantom Menace remains as it is, a one shot story about Young Anakin. Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith now bookend a new film set entirely during the Clone Wars. A transitional film set during the Dark Times bridges the gap between trilogies.



    One, I don't see the need for an entire film about the Clone Wars. This is why I'm not a fan of the cartoon series. I believe that the beginning of the Clones set the stage for the decline of the Jedi Order and the Republic . . . and the end of the war marked the final decline - just as Lucas had depicted it. Why would we need an entire movie on the Clone Wars? How would that advance the story?

    And a transitional film set between ROTS and ANH? One might as create an entire trilogy or two for that period. I don't believe that a movie about the "Dark Times" should be part of the Prequel Trilogy or saga. I believe that such a movie should be part of its own series of movies.



    It's a really interesting what if. A forth film about Anakin Obi-Wan would have really strengthen the friendship between the two characters. The Obi-Wan Anakin dynamic in the opening of RotS is fantastic and I would have loved to seen an entire film with them swashbuckling across the galaxy.


    This doesn't work for me. This doesn't really feel right for this trilogy. At least not to me. It sounds as if you wanted Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship to be just as ideal as the relationships each had with Qui-Gon.
  24. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    Am I correct in that the live action series was supposed to take place during the "Dark Times" gap between Eps III and IV? That would have been a terrific time period for a series. I understand the series was supposed to be quite dark and adult in nature- I wish they had not canned the idea. It would have been so awesome.
  25. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    This speaks to a discussion that I'd been having with d_arblay in another thread:



    Why should Obi-Wan have specifically said those words, when, up to this point in the saga (TESB), such usage/terminology ("my master") is used by certain droids to describe their relationship(s) with certain humans. It's unnecessary for Ben to have said it in such a manner. One can't help but suspect that such an expectation only exists because of TPM. Prior to TPM, I'd never encountered anyone who thought that Obi-Wan had more than one Jedi Master/teacher/instructor.


    You go wrong right on the first sentence: Yoda wasn't described by Ben as "a" Jedi Master, but as "THE" Jedi Master.
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