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The Suffering of Naboo citizens.

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Jedi_Learner, Jan 17, 2003.

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  1. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Mar 26, 2001
    Ternian: "There was NO suffering. The Sith and the Trade Federation were using this to bluff Amidala in signing the treaty."

    I've heard this good argument before. It does work, but it's not well-portrayed in the film. Besides, what about the hunger strike? Gunray also threatens Bibble. I think there was suffering.

    You're right about the TF not being pure villains. They're more like pawns. That's maybe why their hats make them look like chess pieces.
     
  2. Ternian

    Ternian Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    May 16, 2000
    It does work, but it's not well-portrayed in the film.

    I think *it* is well portrayed, but I don't think the treaty is well portrayed. ;)
     
  3. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Mar 26, 2001
    The reason I don't think so is Lucas had Bibble betray the Queen in his revised rough draft. This would help tie his message to the Queen and the deceit of the TF.

    The treaty was to make the invasion legal and carve out the TF's own little fiefdom. Well, really Sidious' fiefdom. This would begin to split the Republic. That's my view anyway.
     
  4. SomeRandomNerd

    SomeRandomNerd Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 1999
    >>>The reason I don't think so is Lucas had Bibble betray the Queen in his revised rough draft. This would help tie his message to the Queen and the deceit of the TF.

    In the film, Obi Wan says that the message is a trick.

    I think there was probably some suffering going on, but I don't think that people were dying. And the point is that what the Queen thinks is going on is more important to the story than what is actually going on. There would have been no reason for the Trade Federation to have been torturing/killing civilians- especially given that they wanted to tie everything up with the treaty at the end of the day- not too easy to do with a bunch of mysterious corpses...

    It would have been nice to see that plot point get somehow resolved at the end of the film though- or maybe in AOTC, when we see Bibble talking about the Trade Federation again...
     
  5. Lurking_Around

    Lurking_Around Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    May 26, 2002
    I really really hate to jump on the "look at LOTR" bandwagon. Really, I hate doing that, even if I'm a basher.

    Alas, I have to. In TTT we see the suffering of Rohan's people, we see the women crying as their husbands or sons are led away to join the army since Theoden's 300 men are not enough to defend Helms Deep. We see how frightened the women and children were as the Uruk Hai stamp their feet, blow the walls, break the doors.

    Just a few simple scenes, and yet they made a world of difference to me. I still cry everytime the little kid at the village told her mom "I don't want to leave..." and then her mom said "Freda, I will find you there..."

    :_| :_| :_|

    No way can I have a similar reaction if I just hear Saruman say "It will begin in Rohan" yet all the suffering is not shown, off screen, all infered.
     
  6. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    This all has to do with dramatic tension. Whether nor not her people were suffering was a device to elevate the tension of their extended detour on Tatooine.[blockquote][hr]Qui-Gon: "It sounds like bait to establish a connection trace."

    Obi-Wan: "What if it is true and the people are dying?"

    Qui-Gon: "Either way, we're running out of time."[hr][/blockquote]Keeping the audience in the dark helps them to relate to the character's positon better.

    You hear Sio-Bibble say the people are suffering, and you imagine what that might be like on your own, without the film confirming it as something that is in fact happening.

    I like the way Lucas handled this.
     
  7. Ternian

    Ternian Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    May 16, 2000
    That line should have been used to tie the bond for Padme and Anakin for AotC to work.
     
  8. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    What do you mean? What line?
     
  9. shadow_angel13

    shadow_angel13 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2002
    You want to know what happened????







    READ THE NOVEL!!!!!!!!!

    (yes it is that simple)
     
  10. Ternian

    Ternian Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    May 16, 2000
    Sorry, Gomer.

    I meant Sio Bibble's line about suffering.

    GL should have connected Padme's feelings about her family with Anakin's feelings about his and built on it for the love story in AotC.

     
  11. TokyoXtreme

    TokyoXtreme Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Out of curiosity, what does the novel say? McGregor said it was a trick, so I'm guessing it was. The TF aliens are too slippy to do anything really serious, especially when they have the snoopybots for their muscle.
     
  12. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 1999
    "This all has to do with dramatic tension."

    I've gotta disagree with that; if I came up and told you that, say, a random nomad clan in Northern Africa might be in some kind of trouble, for some reason or another, how tensed-up would you get?

    One of the most entertaining bad movies of all time, Sinbad of the Seven Seas, has the bad guy throw four (apparently special) rocks into the sea, whereupon Sinbad embarks on a quest to get them back. The film never bothers to explain what these rocks do or represent, why the bad guy threw them into the sea, how much time Sinbad has to recover them, or what'll happen if he doesn't; rather than give the audience a reason to care about the quest, the filmmakers decide instead to leave them out in the cold.

    There are plenty of reasons to watch Sinbad of the Seven Seas, but all of them involve laughing at it.
     
  13. hoth-nudist

    hoth-nudist Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2000
    I dont know about the suffering of Nabooboo's citizens. There was suffering of SW fans due to this weak plot idea.
     
  14. Jedi_Learner

    Jedi_Learner Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 10, 2002
    Would this sort of scene be met with positive comments rather than negative comments if the rumoured Archival Editions are made? :confused:
     
  15. hoth-nudist

    hoth-nudist Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2000
    Not from me, Im sick and tired of GL having to revise, redo this and that for his ever-changing so-called vision. Its pathetic.
     
  16. Ree Yees

    Ree Yees Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2000
    What Lucas should have done IMO was to extend the invasion; you know the rather great shot where you see the Trade Federation army move towards Theed. Here, we could have seen tanks attacking, STAPs shooting, the Queen's small guard fighting, and with some different editing the Jedi could have arrived as the city was invaded, thus joining the battle and in the ensuing chaos - and suffering - find Amidala and escort her safely away from the planet.
     
  17. SomeRandomNerd

    SomeRandomNerd Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 1999
    >>>you know the rather great shot where you see the Trade Federation army move towards Theed. Here, we could have seen tanks attacking, STAPs shooting, the Queen's small guard fighting, and with some different editing the Jedi could have arrived as the city was invaded, thus joining the battle and in the ensuing chaos - and suffering - find Amidala and escort her safely away from the planet.

    Well, I thought the whole point of that shot was that there were no shots fired in the invasion- the Naboo had no means to defend themselves against the huge invading army, so there wasn't a single shot fired.

    No battle, no ensuing chaos, and definitely no suffering- not at that point, anyway.

    As it is, Amidala's vote of no confidence is based on the fact she thinks her people are dying, when in fact they aren't. And I think it's important that this isn't made obvious to the audience.

    If you don't know what's going on, it seems that she's the one doing the right thing in a corrupt Senate to save her people. If you do know what's going on with Palpatine/Sidious etc. then you know that she's had the wool pulled over her eyes, and is being manipulated through her fear for her people. She was in the wrong to not let the Senate confirm her story, so Palpatine's election should never have happened.
     
  18. rpeugh

    rpeugh Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2002
    You guys need to keep in mind that TPM is supposed to be a lighthearted movie, happy go lucky. It would not be that way if we actually saw the suffering of the Naboo citezens. BUt I do think it would be appropriate if we saw something like that in episode 3.
     
  19. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    "As it is, Amidala's vote of no confidence is based on the fact she thinks her people are dying, when in fact they aren't. And I think it's important that this isn't made obvious to the audience."

    Oh come on! Then why have the scene with Bibble and Gunray where they debate the hunger-strike? Why show that at all if we're supposed to wonder "Hmmm....maybe Amidala is lying? Maybe we should believe Lott Dodd?"

    The TF are in league with a SITH LORD for Yoda's sake! We know they're the bad guys!

    Good grief, TPM's main problem was too many meetings with people talking about what happened, could happen, has happened, instead of SHOWING IT.

    And, for the last damn time, it does not have to be graphic. Just show some Naboo held under guard performing some sort of labour.

    Too graphic?! This is the same damn PC sentiment that will lead to Lucas eventually editing out Walrus Man's bloody limb, Greedo getting shot(hell, he already shoots first. Go all the way George!)and the sound of that guys wind pipe being crushed.

    Too GRAPHIC! Take it out!
     
  20. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    When Sio Bibble sends the transmission about how the people are suffering and dying, Qui-Gon supposes that it is bait to establish a connection trace.

    If they showed how they were doing, it would have killed that dramatic tension. It puts the audience in the shoes of the Heros who don't know themselves.

    Either way, they were running out of time.
     
  21. Quixotic-Sith

    Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2001
    You guys need to keep in mind that TPM is supposed to be a lighthearted movie, happy go lucky. It would not be that way if we actually saw the suffering of the Naboo citezens. BUt I do think it would be appropriate if we saw something like that in episode 3.

    Nonsense. Chicken Run was a lighthearted, family-friendly movie that realistically and immediately showed that there was a real threat, thereby establishing credibility to the plight of the protagonists. Death was very real, but antiseptic and alluded to directly (and *not* by a passing reference to an off-camera event). I had no real reason to care for the citizens of Naboo, especially since there was no way for me to know that they weren't enjoying themselves immensely.

    "Life is so dreadfully placid and calm, dearest. It's so tepid and superficial that it's making me depressed."
    "Wait, honey, I think I just saw a robot army invade our capital city!"
    "Oh, jolly good! At last a bit of a distraction from all the hum-drum! Bless the Trade Federation and their army of benevolent and *interesting* droids!"
    "Quite right, lovey! More popcorn?"

    It was off-camera, so how can we know whether or not the above dialogue took place? There's just as compelling a reason for the citizens to rejoice than there is for them to weep...

    The bottom line is that for many folks in the audience, there was no essential tension regarding a conflict that may or may not exist, and hence, no reason for them to root for "our heroes."
     
  22. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    What about the pretense that they are the heros?

    To me, it seems pretty stand-offish for the audience to go out of their way to assume it was a picnic for the Naboo citizens.

    They were led away to "detention camps".

    Who doesn't understand their potential plight?

    Amidala was not prompted by her own confirmation of her people's plight, but her imagination of the worst case scenario that may have been happening. If the audience is going to relate to her, they shouldn't have that confirmation either.

    The other bottom line here is that for many other folks in the audience, the dramatic tension lies in not knowing.
     
  23. SomeRandomNerd

    SomeRandomNerd Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 1999
    >>>Oh come on! Then why have the scene with Bibble and Gunray where they debate the hunger-strike?

    Hunger strike?

    Is this a scene from the novelisation or something?
    :confused:

    >>>Why show that at all if we're supposed to wonder "Hmmm....maybe Amidala is lying? Maybe we should believe Lott Dodd?"

    Amidala isn't lying- she believes that her people are dying, but they aren't.

    >>>The TF are in league with a SITH LORD for Yoda's sake! We know they're the bad guys!

    Yes, and that Sith Lord has used Amidala's fear to make her do exactly what he wants her to do.

    >>>Good grief, TPM's main problem was too many meetings with people talking about what happened, could happen, has happened, instead of SHOWING IT.

    If something's not shown, it's not shown for a reason.

    The "suffering" wasn't shown for the reason that what was happening was different from what Amidala thought was happening.

    Palpatine's work wasn't shown because it's not supposed to be clear to the audience that he is Sidious.

    What wasn't shown that should have been?

    >>>Too graphic?! This is the same damn PC sentiment that will lead to Lucas eventually editing out Walrus Man's bloody limb, Greedo getting shot(hell, he already shoots first. Go all the way George!)and the sound of that guys wind pipe being crushed.

    Oh, come on; TPM had the most graphic violence of any Star Wars film with Qui Gon and Darth Maul's deaths.
     
  24. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    Go-Mer, I'm not talking about Bibble's holo scene. I'm talking about the scene where Bibble and Gunray are talking together in the palace.

    Gunray: When will you end this pointless strike?

    Bibble: The people have decided. We are a democracy.

    SRN:
    "Hunger strike? Is this a scene from the novelisation or something?"

    Umm...bibble's hologram: "...cut off ALL FOOD SUPPLIES UNTIL YOU RETURN. The death toll is catastrophic.

    Obi-Wan: It's a trick. Send no reply.

    Now, the trick is in playing on Amidala's sympathy towards her starving people and forcing her to send a message of support, not the contents of the message itself.

    Are you saying Bibble is lying? Are you saying Maul is a clawdite and posed as Bibble?

    It's obvious that her people are suffering. The suffering is to force the Queen to return and sign the treaty.


    SRN:
    "Amidala isn't lying- she believes that her people are dying, but they aren't."

    You've misunderstood one of the most important points of the entire film. Bibble and the Naboo are starving because the TF is trying to force the Queen to return and sign the treaty.


    SRN:
    "Yes, and that Sith Lord has used Amidala's fear to make her do exactly what he wants her to do."

    No, he doesn't. He wants the treaty signed all the way up until Amidala arrives on Coruscant.
    Amidala makes it clear she will sign no treaty. Once that happens, Palpious decides to rid himself of Amidala.
    That's why he immediately tells Maul and Gunray to "Wipe them out. All of them"

    He CHANGED HIS STRATEGY mid-stream.


    SRN:
    "If something's not shown, it's not shown for a reason.
    The "suffering" wasn't shown for the reason that what was happening was different from what Amidala thought was happening."

    That's BS. The only reason we weren't shown what was happening was because Lucas decided he'd rather have characters standing around giving speeches than actually show them do something.

    SRN:
    "Palpatine's work wasn't shown because it's not supposed to be clear to the audience that he is Sidious."

    What is this about? When did I say it would be good to reveal Palpy's identity. Heck, if anything, I wished Lucas would've been more mysterious with the whole thing.


    SRN:
    "Oh, come on; TPM had the most graphic violence of any Star Wars film with Qui Gon and Darth Maul's deaths."

    Again I ask: Why does the suffering of the Naboo have to be graphic? Just show some people performing some manual-labour. Not graphic, but DRAMATIC.

    You know those people out in the streets at the end celebrating and throwing ribbons and confetti? How about a few scenes with those very people in misery during occupation, then later they are happy and joyous?

    Why would they care about Amidala's victory if they weren't miserable under the TF? THEY WOULDN'T! They're happy because the TF made them suffer.

     
  25. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    They didn't show it because Amidala and co didn't know whether it was real or a trick to establish a communication trace.

    They didn't show the audience the reality so they could better relate to the hero's perdicament.

    Not only is this done for a reason, it is done for a great reason.

    Without this device, there would be no dramatic tension while they were stranded on Tatooine.
     
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