.....................The Ten Commandments.....................

Jet-Eye-Blah:

Sorry I didn't see your edit.


"And when looking at ancient texts like the 10 Commandments, you need to look at the context of when it is recorded down."

Ah, sounds like a good idea.

"The first commandment is pretty clear if you look at the time when God communicated with Moses, when the Jews were first out of Egypt, a polythesist nation. Many Jews adopted Egyptian gods, and the 1st commandment is just to straighten those Jews out in a way they understand."

Yes, sounds plausible.


"That discussion was settled in the fourth century AD by Roman theologists. They believed what Jesus was talking there about was the Holy Ghost, which is part of every one of God's creations, that still have His grace."

Settled?, notice your own words here: "They believed..."

Well I believe differently, from where do they get authorisation to the right interpretation? I believe that everyone has the grace of God, we just need to acknowledge it.


"If by "we" you meant Humans then no, we are not God's agents... there is a special term for God's messenger/agent and that word is "angel." "

Who is to say we are not angels? Only we have forgotten?



"5. Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

What if your parents are evil and does bad things, are we still then to honor them?


Of course you should honour them, for they are your parents, how else were you born into this world? Jumped out of a rock?"

I believe this is partly why Jesus said:

"Those who wanst to follow must Love and hate their father and mother"

Love them for giving life, hate them for not being perfect, they didn't give you everthing yo ever wanted(mostly aimed at material stuff)



"That last commandment just says that you should not steal your neighbors... never prohibt anything done to someone who is not your neighbor. That was the excuse the ancient Jews used to conduct ethnic cleansing of original Palestinians when they first reached the Holy Lands."

Interesting, that they used it as an excuse, to do they foul things.





DD - Love Spliff

 

Jet-Eye-Blah:

Sorry I didn't see your edit.

No biggie.

"That discussion was settled in the fourth century AD by Roman theologists. They believed what Jesus was talking there about was the Holy Ghost, which is part of every one of God's creations, that still have His grace."

Settled?, notice your own words here: "They believed..."

Well, yes, the discussion was settled by the fourth century AD. Because any further talk on the subject that differs from teh Church's official policy was then labeled heresy, and heretics was chased down and executed. Very soon, no body was willing to discuss it. So you see, the official discussion ended when the Church became assertive, and did not begin again for over a thousand years.

Who is to say we are not angels? Only we have forgotten?

Can I burrow your halo please?

Angels are suppose to be able to directly communicate with God, those who can't hear the His voice are not angels. Also angels suppose to be both male and female in one, what's that word called again? Hermi-something?

 

"Settled?, notice your own words here: "They believed..."


Well, yes, the discussion was settled by the fourth century AD. Because any further talk on the subject that differs from teh Church's official policy was then labeled heresy, and heretics was chased down and executed."


Thats a good way to keep people down, don't let them think for themselves, I know the truth, and that makes me powerful!

"Very soon, no body was willing to discuss it. So you see, the official discussion ended when the Church became assertive, and did not begin again for over a thousand years."

Yes, people started to wake up


"Can I burrow your halo please?"

Your own is just fine

"Angels are suppose to be able to directly communicate with God, those who can't hear the His voice are not angels. Also angels suppose to be both male and female in one, what's that word called again? Hermi-something?"

Tell me this then, where does your thoughts come from? Are they your own? or Gods? or someelse's





DD - Love Spliff

 

Tell me this then, where does your thoughts come from? Are they your own? or Gods? or someelse's

From inside of my skull, of course.

 

A few stray Comments:

The Commandments are multipurpose;

They are rules of love, and written in perfect and necessary order, necessarily beginning with God, which is because philosophically that is an imperative or they cease to be built upon an authoritative basis.


The commandments are also to serve as standardized identifiers;

1.)They identify the character and nature of a just, loving, concerned and involved Deity. They are a direct reflection of God.

2.)They served as an identifier of the prophesied coming Messiah, whereby we might recognize God in human form when He came amongst us, as only God is capable of perfectly fulfilling the commandments.

3.)They are a mirror by which we may identify ourselves, who we are in relation to God, and the condition of our actual being.




"Not everyone believes in the same God, don't generalize that Christian/Jewish/Muslim God's command can be of use in the modern world of diverse cultures and beliefs."

If the commandments were issued by the one true God, then they are applicable to all individuals regardless of social custom. Such a proclamation given by an omniscient and omnipotent God supercedes any other belief system by virtue of the authorship. The commandments are not therefore merely relativistic.


REDX,

"The number 'ten' has always had me suspicious."

I wonder what number you'd have chosen...


"It's an artificial, padded list."

Can you confirm such a whacky claim?


"I've also always disliked the fact that the most important ones 'don't kill/steal' are so far down the list. No wonder religious fanatics don't take them seriously."

The most important commandment is the first commandment, and all other subsequent commandments are hinged upon that moral imperative. Christ reconfirmed this in his words [paraphrase], "Love God with all your heart and mind....then, love everyone as also you are to love yourself." Christ reiterated that doing so is fulfilling all the commandments, and it is predicated upon God, for numerous reasons that I'll not labor at the moment, some of the implications should be reasonably obvious.



"I don't think so. The fact that God commands his creations to obey him first is a clear indication of how he sees us."

Certainly, He knows we need guidance. And, no, we are not equal to God, and He is aware of this fact.



"But this isn't God's list, it's the list of a religious order designed to control what people say and do."

That sounds paranoid. Can you demonstrably verify this isn't God's list?


"'No other gods but me'? That implies that God is aware that there are in fact other gods."


That doesn't imply there are other "gods" at all in the sense you seem to be implying. A "god" is what we worship, be it ourselves, or some material item, or anything we esteem in preeminence before the one true and almighty God. It is referring to idolatry.



"Why are all the commandments negative? Why does God command his creations to be good to each other?"

None of the commandments are negative, they are all rules of loving conduct, all based on our being good to one another. If we love someone we don't steal from them, commit adultary with their wives, or murder them, etc.

You may wish to ask yourself why you regard the commandments as negative?

"Imagine how different man's history would have been if Moses had come down with just one commandment - Be excellent to each other."

That alone would be a little confusing; what would a cannibal consider being "excellent" to another?


Darth Confederate,
"Star Fire is correct. No commandment is more important than the other. We should also still have them in schools and other public places."

No, Starfire is mistaken, the most important is indeed the first, which sets precedent and establishes all the following commandments.




"True. Jesus did stress the most important commandment. So in the vein of Christian thought, this discussion is no

 

If the commandments were issued by the one true God, then they are applicable to all individuals regardless of social custom. Such a proclamation given by an omniscient and omnipotent God supercedes any other belief system by virtue of the authorship. The commandments are not therefore merely relativistic.

Big IF there, no?

Proclaimation of one true God in these forums have always been the start of problem. Threads like this usually get hijacked to discussion of God's existence before the second page.

"And when looking at ancient texts like the 10 Commandments, you need to look at the context of when it is recorded down."

I think if the source is God, it is relevant for all time, unless otherwise specified. Since, murder, theft, adultary, are still common place, it would seem that the commandments are universally applicable.

That doesn't take away the fact that old testaments are ancient texts. They were written for the understanding of ancient Jews. Modern people have different world views and idea. You can't take a law made from ancient Babylon and make it applicable in today's Iraq just because crime rate back then was low so the laws of that time was automatically better than today Iraq's.

 

Well I believe differently, from where do they get authorisation to the right interpretation? I believe that everyone has the grace of God, we just need to acknowledge it.

The presence of Grace is indicative of the [presence of the Holy Spirit, if we are to analyze Judeao-Christian teaching.

If the Holy Spirit is supposed to be within us, AND without us (aka "The Force"), then why should that be any different from what you believe in?

 

"Big IF there, no?"

"No," is correct, it isn't a big if at all. There is obviously a God.
I used the "if" word simply to avoid the tiresome injection of impassioned denials by resident atheists.


"Proclaimation of one true God in these forums have always been the start of problem. Threads like this usually get hijacked to discussion of God's existence before the second page."

Right, which is why I said "If." It isn't for a lack of evidence of Deity that people are atheists, it's a personal preference to deny any evidence regardless as to how strong. I've never met an intellectually honest atheist...honest agnostics, perhaps, yes,... but no "atheists."
Falls under the proverb of,"professing to be wise they became fools." Something like that. It is the ultimate know-it-all who is obtuse enough to proclaim 'there is no god!'
How very silly.

Irregardless, the comments I made are valid.


"That doesn't take away the fact that old testaments are ancient texts. They were written for the understanding of ancient Jews. Modern people have different world views and idea. You can't take a law made from ancient Babylon and make it applicable in today's Iraq just because crime rate back then was low so the laws of that time was automatically better than today Iraq's."

Sorry, but that doesn't hold up under even the barest scrutiny. Tell me which commandment is superfluous today, which has humanity outgrown...theft? Adultery? Greed? Homocide?

The only commandment one might choose to argue would be the first commandment...even still it is the most important commandment.

How important? Well, at our core we need a God, if even to rail and deny that God. You can't ignore God. That's precisely why a "Proclaimation of one true God in these forums have always been the start of problem. Threads like this usually get hijacked to discussion of God's existence before the second page."

Without God at the core, the center, there is no atheism.
To deny God is to acknowledge God, and there's no way around it.

First commandment. It certainly speaks directly to atheists. Hardly outdated.

The implication then is that the disavowel of God is the highest crime against one's own soul. The first disavowel of God, the incipient disbelief was in the garden at the fall of man. At that time the only known commandment was not to disbelieve in God.


Each other commandment speaks on flawed traits of character which plague modern society as much or more, than during the time the commandments were given.

 

?The Commandments are multipurpose;

They are rules of love, and written in perfect and necessary order, necessarily beginning with God, which is because philosophically that is an imperative or they cease to be built upon an authoritative basis.?

Why is it nessacary to begin with God? Is this according to you, or to ?officia? doctrine?


?The commandments are also to serve as standardized identifiers;

1.)They identify the character and nature of a just, loving, concerned and involved Deity. They are a direct reflection of God.?

Sounds good.

?2.)They served as an identifier of the prophesied coming Messiah, whereby we might recognize God in human form when He came amongst us, as only God is capable of perfectly fulfilling the commandments.?

So by virtue no man can be free from sin. How so does anyone come into heaven? Is it the amount of sin that determines it? I feel certain that God who sopke through Jesus, according to you, will forgive everyone their sin, because Jesus(God) said you should turn the other cheek. God will turn his cheek to your sin, and everyone elses sin, and thus grant acces to heaven for all, or for those who chooses to choose God.

?3.)They are a mirror by which we may identify ourselves, who we are in relation to God, and the condition of our actual being.?

They amongst the rest of existance is a mirror by which we may identify ourselves.


?"It's an artificial, padded list."

Can you confirm such a whacky claim? ?

Can you confirm it is not a padded list? By whose authority do you confirm your own claim? Your priest? Your father or mother? Since no man is perfect in understanding, according to you, then no man can confirm any claim by which you make a dogma out of the scripture.

?The most important commandment is the first commandment, and all other subsequent commandments are hinged upon that moral imperative. Christ reconfirmed this in his words [paraphrase], "Love God with all your heart and mind....then, love everyone as also you are to love yourself."?

Paraphrasing is a dangerous business as it is not apocryphal. AFAIK, Christ said that ?loving your neighbor as you love yourself? is the same as ?loving God?, it is of the same order.

?"I don't think so. The fact that God commands his creations to obey him first is a clear indication of how he sees us."

Certainly, He knows we need guidance. And, no, we are not equal to God, and He is aware of this fact. ?

No the wave is not equal to the sea, but you are of the same water. ?I am one with my father? I am water as my father is water, only my father is the sea, I am the wave. So I am not equal to my father I am one with him.



?"But this isn't God's list, it's the list of a religious order designed to control what people say and do."

That sounds paranoid. Can you demonstrably verify this isn't God's list? ?

Can you do the opposite, besides having the bible as proof?


?"'No other gods but me'? That implies that God is aware that there are in fact other gods."


That doesn't imply there are other "gods" at all in the sense you seem to be implying. A "god" is what we worship, be it ourselves, or some material item, or anything we esteem in preeminence before the one true and almighty God. It is referring to idolatry.?

Yes, but that is the second commandment, that shall not have idolatry. The first is have no other Gods. See the difference?



?"Why are all the commandments negative? Why does God command his creations to be good to each other?"

None of the commandments are negative, they are all rules of loving conduct, all based on our being good to one another. If we love someone we don't steal from them, commit adultary with their wives, or murder them, etc.

You may wish to ask yourself why you regard the commandments as negative??

?Do not?s ? surely are negative, are they not?


?That alone would be a little confusing; what would a cannibal consider being "excellent" to another? ?
?love thy neighbor?? what do you consider to be Love to your neighbor?

 

Darth Dane,

"Why is it nessacary to begin with God? Is this according to you, or to "official" doctrine?"

According to the order of the commandments themselves, for starters...

Sir, allow me to turn the tables, as apparently that is one of your favorite rhetorical devices, on what authority do you make your comments? Your own?
As already explained, it is a philosophical necessity, it provides a rational basis that logically validates what follows, it gives a strength to morality, defines morality, for without that, caveat emptor, buyer beware, we are left with relativism devoid of any sustainable imperatives. All then is relegated to whim in the opinions of some, which is there choice, but of course there always consequences for our choices.

Keep reading, you'll have a clearer picture of the commandments by the end of this post.


"So by virtue no man can be free from sin."

That is correct. Further, the commandments are a cohesive whole, when you break one you break all.

Can you name a single person in your life, or an aquaintance, who hasn't broken one of these commandments? I cannot, nor have I ever met anyone who claims not to have broken one of these laws. And even that, is highly limited to knowledge of observations and admissions, and a small fragment of the overall behavior inacted throughout an entire lifetime of a person, a sliver. How much more has been done that you and I are not aware of? The commandments could only be overcome by someone who has not broken a single one, even if we remove the first from the equation. That is also proof of God, that such a transcendent standard could be presented that no human being can successfully overcome, not of the billions of lives in thousands of years. Only one individual. 'Yes, to him do you listen.'The unrelenting timelessness and strength of the commandments is undiminished and untarnished.


"How so does anyone come into heaven?"

"With man it is impossible, with God all things are possible." Grace through the atonement and reparation for sins upon the Cross, salvation in and through the grace of Christ.

"Is it the amount of sin that determines it?"

"All have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

"I feel certain that God who sopke through Jesus, according to you,..."

It's not according to me, it's according to God.

"...will forgive everyone their sin, because Jesus(God) said you should turn the other cheek."

Christ also said,"You must be born again." God gave a list of commandments to follow. Annnnd, punishments for those who will not obey the strictures. There are stipulations.
Christ spent a great deal of his ministry warning against the impending danger of Hell.
It seems unreasonable to suggest he would do so if the threat wasn't imminent, and if there was no need to die for the sins of the world.

"God will turn his cheek to your sin, and everyone elses sin, and thus grant acces to heaven for all, or for those who chooses to choose God."

The question isn't about God turning the cheek, it's about human beings turning on God.

You can pick and choose from the scriptures, take what you're comfortable with out of context, but that also ignores it was God who issued the commandments, and it was Christ who said,"Think not that I am come to destroy the law [referencing the commandments], or the prophets, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one title shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Shall we look at more words pertaining to the commandments which Christ had to say? They won't agree with the picture it seems you're attempting to paint.


3.)They are a mirror by which we may identify ourselves, who we are in relation to God, and the condition of our actual being.

"They amongst the rest of existance is a mirror by which we may identify ourselves."

Not in that type of self-awareness, and our own realizations and rationalization are no

 

Moses wrote the ten commandments. He told the people it was the word of God. In reality...it was the thoughts of Moses.

You see...at the time, people were following Moses and worshipping him as a God. They were even erecting statues of cows to worship him. I dont know about you, but I would get annoyed if I was being worshipped and followed like that.

So, Moses decided to go into the mountains, carve some basic fundamental rules of social behavior and tell the people that the "real God" told him to write them. It's pretty basic, really.

 

Moses wrote the ten commandments. He told the people it was the word of God. In reality...it was the thoughts of Moses.

In reality, that is your opinion only.

 

Yes...but a logical one.

 

Logical solutions do not always present themselves in reality. I see things in this ICU that defy logic.

Linear scientific thought isn't the end of all means in the known universe. There are much greater mysteries than what our finite human minds can comprehend, and knowing how God works is not one of them.

 

Good point. I agree that linear thought is not a method for comprehending the Universe.

However...learning to gain knowledge with an open mind and being able to allow one's understandings to evolve does not come easily.

 

That is exactly right in terms of matters of faith.

 

Yes. I imagine it would be difficult to keep faith in 4,000 year old beliefs with so much scientific knowledge at your fingertips.

 

In my opinion, science shows the majesty of and the intricacies of creation as it has existed and evolved over billions of years.

I would find it difficult to look at the universe and not believe in anything but yourself as in the subscription to the humanist perspective.

Back to the discussion at hand: the Ten Commandments can essentially be summed up by the Golden Rules: Love your neighbor as yourself, and Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.

 

You see...at the time, people were following Moses and worshipping him as a God. They were even erecting statues of cows to worship him. I dont know about you, but I would get annoyed if I was being worshipped and followed like that.

So, Moses decided to go into the mountains, carve some basic fundamental rules of social behavior and tell the people that the "real God" told him to write them. It's pretty basic, really.


Umm... have you even studied the slightest bit about Egypt? THey had all sorts of gods, including a cow, though the name escapes me as of this moment. When Moses was up on the mountain too long, they went back to worshipping the cows, not God. It makes MUCH more sense than someone erecting a cow in honor of Moses.

Cow God/ Cow

Moses/Cow

The former seems to be a closer connection.

It's quite easy to understand, really. I find it easy to believe that some of the Hebrews no longer believed in God, and started a schism, if you will, while Moses was up on Mount Sinai. The Hebrews were easily swain away from God. That is why they spent forty years in the wilderness before God finally allowed them to come into Israel.

 

?"Why is it nessacary to begin with God? Is this according to you, or to "official" doctrine?"

According to the order of the commandments themselves, for starters...?

Fair enough. You religuish your own freewill, because a book with words tell you too?

?As already explained, it is a philosophical necessity, it provides a rational basis that logically validates what follows, it gives a strength to morality, defines morality, for without that, caveat emptor, buyer beware, we are left with relativism devoid of any sustainable imperatives. All then is relegated to whim in the opinions of some, which is there choice, but of course there always consequences for our choices.?

Could you exchange God with Love? What is more important; Love or God? As an idea God represents certain words, as an idea Love holds certain words. In the ?Gospel of the holy twelve?, Jesus says that faith without Love is dry. So you may have faith in God, but if there is no Love, what is it?
Love is the beginning, the path and the goal.
We come from Love, we Love and we reach Love.

Keep reading, you'll have a clearer picture of the commandments by the end of this post.


"So by virtue no man can be free from sin."

?That is correct. Further, the commandments are a cohesive whole, when you break one you break all.?

When you eat meat, you break the commandment of Love, for thou shall not kill, or live off of that which nessecitates killing. When you buy leather, you ask people to kill for you, again you break the commandment.

?Can you name a single person in your life, or an aquaintance, who hasn't broken one of these commandments??

No. Can you tell me if Jesus sinned during the lost years from 12 to 30 approx? The bible doesn?t say does it? So now we are left with a missing link. You and I cannot prove anything conclusively about what Jesus did in those years. We can believe what we want, but noone has been able to clarify this. Even the church cannot do this?there is no canon scriptures to refer to here is there?


?I cannot, nor have I ever met anyone who claims not to have broken one of these laws. And even that, is highly limited to knowledge of observations and admissions, and a small fragment of the overall behavior inacted throughout an entire lifetime of a person, a sliver. How much more has been done that you and I are not aware of??

Infinitely much


?The commandments could only be overcome by someone who has not broken a single one, even if we remove the first from the equation. That is also proof of God, that such a transcendent standard could be presented that no human being can successfully overcome, not of the billions of lives in thousands of years. Only one individual.?

I do not believe that the commandments are impossible for humans to overcome.

?God loves each of us as if there were only one of us? ? St. Augustine
You are that individual that can overcome them, do you wish to?

? 'Yes, to him do you listen.'The unrelenting timelessness and strength of the commandments is undiminished and untarnished.?

I dunno, I cannot see to all ends on this yet.

"All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Quote?

?"I feel certain that God who sopke through Jesus, according to you,..."

It's not according to me, it's according to God.?

This is where it may be smart to separate your knowledge. You know it is God. I do not. So you cannot argue with belief, unless you want belief against belief. Listen:

According to you, God spoke through Jesus. To an atheist this is not true. How can you press your knowledge down someone else throat? So your claim that God exists, relies solely on your own personnal belief. Your belief that the bible is from God, that only Jesus is perfect etc., is belief. If you talk to your friend in the church, you can agree that it was God who spoke, because you both believe the same thing, so here it is knowledge and belief. But when talknig to others, they view you as a believer, not a man of objective knowledge.

?Christ also said,"You must b

 

UP

So where is jedimaster201, scarletbanner, Ender , TFU.

You usually have some insightful comments, and are rather good in discovering faults, if any, in an argument.
And anyone else who cares to talk and discuss these things.



Hope you will step up, and take a swing at it.





DD - Love Spliff