JCC Arena The Theist/Atheist Thunderdome™

I remember my labels phase.

 

Strangely enough, out of my family, I'm the most spiritual. Though I'm not religious in the slightest. I think public worship is a strange phenomenon.

 

In my experience, those who dwell on sex the most are often the once least likely to be having any of it. See Moviefan's frequent use of the, "Nude woman walking down the street," argument for a good example.

 

Atheism on the rise in Britain

Neener.

 

Ok. I see where your coming from. I agree we should question our beliefs. I know you have a ton of points I won't even try to answer them all. But I will say a few things.
1. You have my respect for at least not calling yourself Catholic anymore, that shows your honesty. There are Catholic splinter groups who bash everything and still call themselves Catholic.

2. About the contraceptives things. If you said having a child would cause serious damage and you need to take contraceptives. Now I won't open this can of worms, but from a Catholic standpoint (which doesn't apply to you since your not Catholic anymore so no worries seriously) it wouldn't be "right" to populate.

3. The whole the Church is full of "thou shalt nots" is no new thing. But Catholics believe the Church (namely the Pope) simply gives God's word. And God just like a father gives rules to protect his children not to harm them.

4. About choosing what's right, that's fine but how do you know your right? A simple feeling isn't enough for me.

5. While the mainstream media may want to make it appear so the Catholic church has no problems with Homosexuals or any other orientation it's their "interpretation" that they find immoral.
6. Doctrine declared ex cathedra is not open to interpretation.

In closing, I am sorry if I came off rude, but it sounds like you had some bad experiences with the Church. Which I feel responsible for. (Cause I partially am). I'll be praying for you (to find the right path WHATEVER it is)

Thanks for the explanation. I appreciate it.

Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk

 

Very interesting article that shows the late, great Frank Sinatra was ahead of his time.
http://deadstate.org/frank-sinatras-views-on-organized-religion-were-decades-ahead-of-his-time/

 

It's your in-depth commentary on these issues that really elevates this thread.

 

It's not as though as "atheism on the rise in European country" is a new story anyway.

 

I don't feel that Pulsar's "I'll pray for you" was sincere.

 

Nah, it wasn't.

I don't think he actually read my post either.

 

I don't know how "ahead of its time" it was. Those have long been the minority/contrarian reviews on religion in America. Thomas Jefferson was making similar points.

 

People have claimed to have prayed for me for years. I'm still an atheist. So they were either lying, or prayer doesn't actually work.

 

I'm not sure everyone actually prays for you. I think a lot of people claim that to be good Christians or whatever they're trying to achieve. Some people do mean it, but a lot don't.

But even if they do, what's the nonsense about praying for you to "find the right path"? Almost all my friends who pray for others pray for the health & wellbeing of the other party, not for them to stop being any religion. lol.

Bonus is they usually ask "would you like me to pray for you?", they don't just start telling everyone "you need prayers! I am praying for you!"
The latter is very intrusive.

Maybe my friends just aren't crazy and rude.

 

In my experience, when theists say "I'll pray for you" to an atheist, what they're really saying is "I don't respect your views at all, so I'm going to ask my imaginary friend to intervene in your life and make you believe in him whether you want to or not."

Another way to interpret that phrase is "I want what's best for you as long as it takes absolutely no effort on my behalf."

 

I like to respond with "I accept prayers in the form of Amazon gift cards. You can send them to me by Express Mail."

 

Exactly.
Unless you know the person who's saying it, it's unlikely to be an actually a good sentiment (through interpretation by the atheist/agnostic or the actual meaning of the theist).

 

I've never known anyone who prayed for another person for a negative reason. I think you guys are being a little prickly about this. anakinfansince1983 got this one right. When I pray for others, I typically pray that they would become the best that they can be, the person they are meant to be. That is prayed without any limitations being put there by myself and it is exactly, again without limitations, what I want for myself.

That said, while I do often pray for others, I consider the main purpose of prayer to be that of bringing the person doing the praying into a closer relationship to God and to a place of inner peace that allows that person to be a better person. Even in times when I have prayed for a specific thing in my life or another person's life, the answer I was looking for was not that the problem be instantly solved in some miraculous way. The answer I needed was to receive that inner peace that everything would be all right in the long run. A lot of people misunderstand prayer and that's why they're able to say that prayer doesn't "work" when they don't see concrete results. Prayer works on the interior life and interior self of the person praying.

Look at the example of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemene. He prays to be spared the crucifixion; does that prayer "work" in the sense that he is then spared the crucifixion? No. But does that prayer work? Yes, because he is ultimately able to say "Not my will, but thine be done." He has come at last to the inner peace that assures him that, whatever happens, he will have the strength to go through it. That's the work of prayer.

I have gone to prayer countless times in my life deeply troubled and distressed over things happening in my life; and, if I am patient enough in prayer, I have found myself countless times leaving that place of prayer still facing the problems, but centered and calmed and peaceful in the knowledge that I am loved and I will make it through whatever I'm facing. I think to say that those prayers didn't work just because my problems were still there is a shallow way of thinking.

I feel much of this could probably be applied to meditation as well, but my experience in that area is pretty limited.

 

That's beautiful. That genuinely makes it seem like you care more about others than the average man.
Sadly I don't think it represents the bulk of prayer.

 

I completely agree with what you are saying. I know many, many people who pray for that reason of inner peace. I did as well, I still do occasionally. I never prayed for God to make it stop, only for him to give me strength or courage or clarity.

But I also have been on both sides here so I feel like either it becomes something misunderstood or something insulting to an atheist, or alternatively is given with the wrong intentions on the side of the theist. (Like "I'll pray for you to find the right path"). It does indeed feel like those sentiments mean "I'll pray for you to become Christian, because your path right now is the wrong path". It's not necessarily either party's fault, it is just how I have observed these situations.

 

I think people saying, "I'll pray for you" to an atheist it depends on the context. If you are having a discussion on religion and you say you're an atheist and they immediately say "I'll pray for you", they are being condescending and don't respect your views. (This has happened to me more than once.)

If you say something about yourself/family member/friend who's sick and they say 'I'll pray for you/them', I think they are just giving well wishes and I would just say "thank you" and move on, even if they know you are an atheist. Unless you are really close to them, I doubt they are actually going to pray about it.

When people ask for prayers on social media because someone is sick, I usually just say I'm thinking about them. I know it doesn't actually do anything, but it seems to make people feel better and I'm not going to lie and say I'll pray for them when I'm not.

 

Exactly. When my grandmother passed away in August, I received several variations of "prayers for you and your family" over Facebook. That sort of prayer I don't mind. It's the only the condescending type that bothers me.