JCC Arena The Theist/Atheist Thunderdome™

"Being good" is, again, not what "righteous" means.

 

"looks at conversation started by my initial post yesterday"

 

You didn't do it. George Lucas' bad writing and Hayden's bad acting didn't either.

 

Don't worry, I'm sure someone will blame this on those things soon enough.

 

WDNDSWITTAT

 

Might as well. The usual discussion here is, as usual, ****. And by that I mean more often than not toxic, involving the usual suspects. Which is kind of ironic considering this is a thread that more or less involves spirituality or transcendence from our savage hairless ape nature.

 

Is that the definition of spirituality?

 

I don't think that was ever the purpose of this thread. We had several thoughtful ones, including separate atheist and Christianity threads. This one was specifically designed to house loud stupid arguments between partisans that were making other threads unbearable. It is most strident, least informed, most tiring version of theological discussion ever to exist on the JCC. Even after some of the bomb-throwers left, it's still mostly a place where people from both sides vent grievances that don't explicitly but nonetheless cumulatively seem to stand as a sort of unfair and over-extended indictment against the other side. If I was going to try and have a serious discussion, I wouldn't do it here.

 

Well, again, that second one is kind of a strawman. It would be more accurate to say "a person who is good because an outside force taught them to be." Or "inspired them to be." Which the raises the question of why the first person wants to be. Influence from outside forces? And even if you're directly told to do something good, don't you also have to want to do so in order to do it? So doesn't the second person in your example also want to be good? It's the same thing: we're all influenced by outside forces as far as building our personal morality - none of us were born kind, loving & compassionate; anyone who's spent any time with young children can tell you that. You don't have to teach children to be rebellious or selfish. And, after those outside forces teach us about morality, we all have to want to be good. You're putting forth a dichotomy that doesn't really exist.

Or, on a second level, that I also find quite compelling, it's a double bind. As Alan Watts likes to say, "You MUST do something that is only valuable if it is done voluntarily." "Thou SHALT love," Jesus says in one scripture. That's something a Zen master would say. "Be spontaneous" is a good example; or "be yourself." So, if God tells us that we MUST be "good," something we can only be if we freely choose to be . . . well, maybe He's actually proving a point, not giving a command.

Just a couple of deeper, more interesting ways to think about the dichotomy you set up there.

 

There is a meta-option here though. That 2nd person might well be like the first person. But I have posted many a religious leader saying without God rape would be ok, and murder would be ok, we are all sinners fromt he get go and would be evil without God. And these leaders have millions of followers.

 

I think the idea how I've always understood it (and I may be mistaken) isn't that people who aren't Christians are morally repugnant. It's that without God in general we'd all be morally repugnant, and the difference is that supposedly God has imprinted himself on his creation. He created the universe and his grace and power kind of radiate off of it in a sense, and that imprint allows anyone to do good things. So good can still be done by people who aren't necessarily "God's children". But I don't know it "good" can be equated with "salvation", since salvation requires a little extra work.

If we were living in a state of existence without God's implicit presence then that means we would all be a basket of deplorables, but since creation as it is now is under the influence of God, then that's not happening.

When I hear people spout nonsense about people who don't believe in God being inherently evil and backward, I cringe.

 

Right, I think the idea that all good things flow from God is what some people are trying to express in a kind of sloppy way and I have some sympathy with that perspective. Since I do believe God exists, I can't really put that theory to the test; if you believe God doesn't exist, you believe it already has been and has been disproved. But there's a difference in saying that people wouldn't be good if God didn't exist and saying that people won't be good if they don't believe God exists. The first is a theological idea; the second is an insult.

 

Like I said in my old "Understanding Christianity" thread, "fear of hell" or "greed for heaven" are a plague and completely contrary to what Christianity is supposed to be about, which is "loving God and each other" without motivation for reward but love for doing good and seeing the good and focusing on the good.

 

nobody be mad pls I have no where else to post this.

 

All they needed to do was call mall security. They'll remove him for the disturbance.

 

That pastor just looks like a nasty piece of ****.

 

Most of all, the premise of that video just reminds me of the "Snape Kills Dumbledore" spoiler on opening night of that Harry Potter book going on sale.

 

Also, he's in ****ing Texas. Odds are a lot of those families are Christians anyway.

 

The secular-humanist liberals are corrupting our good Christian children with their witchcraft and stuff.

 

I love this new trend of the a-holes and psychos actually filming themselves because they're so ******* crazy they think everyone will applaud them for what they're doing. It kind of takes the burden off of bystanders as far as the filming duties go.

 

Proud to be deplorable!

 

Yeah.....

 

You know what? THERE IS NO EASTER BUNNY! That guy over there, he's just a guy in a suit!