The Theme of Trust - The Key to Anakin's Fall?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by jedi_jacks, Dec 28, 2005.

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  1. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    I haven't read the shatterpoint novels or anything, but anakin's 'shatterpoint' must be trust. The Jedi did not trust Anakin and Sidious did - that's why Anakin turned to the darkside. I scanned through some of the trust quotes from RotS:


    OBI-WAN: Anakin, the only reason the Council has approved your appointment is because the Chancellor trusts you.

    MACE: It's very dangerous, putting them together. I don't think the boy can handle it. I don't trust him.

    ANAKIN: I have to admit my trust in them has been shaken.

    ANAKIN: Obi-Wan and the Council don't trust me.
    PADME: They trust you with their lives.

    PALPATINE: They don't trust you, Anakin. They see your future. They know your power will be too strong to control. Anakin, you must break through the fog of lies the Jedi have created around you. Let me help you to know the subtleties of the Force.

    ANAKIN: I must go, Master.
    MACE WiNDU: No. If what you told me is true, you will have gained my trust, but for now remain here.
    ANAKIN: Yes, Master.
    MACE WiNDU: Wait for us in the Council Chamber until we return.
    ANAKIN: Yes, Master.

    PALPATINE: Because the Council did not trust you, my young apprentice, I believe you are the only Jedi with no knowledge of this plot. When the Jedi learn what has transpired here, they will kill us, along with all the Senators.


    Now I finally get that last quote a bit better!!! It seems totally wrong, because it is. But logically, the emperor is right. because of A, this is what happens. On that level, he's right. Plus he's playing on Anakin's fears and feeding propaganda.

    edit: Plus, when Luke trusted Anakin blindly in RotJ, he turned back to the lightside of the force (which has never been done before, I don't think).
  2. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Excellent Topic!!!

    I agree it has a lot to do with trust. Especially for Sidious. He trusted all the things that he did would corrupt Anakin's way of thinking.

    He was right.
  3. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    MACE WiNDU: No. If what you told me is true, you will have gained my trust, but for now remain here.


    Theres a theme right there in that line.
  4. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    but the jedi order wasnt corrupt or anything, like some people were saying, they didnt deserve the fall.
  5. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    they were corrupt. doesn't make them deserve the jedicide. just like anakin didn't deserve his fate.
    yet someone concluded that it may be about time it happened.
  6. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Trust was an issue, but it was not the key. The key was that Anakin is simply greedy. He only attacked Mace because if Palpatine dies, then Padme dies. Anakin saved Palpatine because he thought that he was doing the right thing, by stopping Mace. He didn't know that Mace was going to die as soon as he was unarmed. He just wanted to pump Palpatine for information and he couldn't do that if he was dead. But what Anakin does is that he convinces himself that the Jedi were the traitors all along. It's the only way he can live with what he has done and the only way he can prevent Padme from realizing the truth of what he has done.
  7. Alpha-Red Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2004
    star 5
    How was the Jedi Order corrupt?? The Jedi Order has never been perfect in its history, so you can't just say it's corrupt.
  8. WraithThirteen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2004
    star 1
    I agree to an extent, but I don't think that trust was the central issue to his fall, just a mitigating circumstance that fed his anger and frustration at being repeatedly denied by the council and his fear at losing Padme. How he convinced himself the Jedi were the bad guys and his repeated attempts to justify his actions by saying "I won't betray the Republic or the Chancellor" when he wanted the Chancellor removed in the first place is confusing to say the least.

    It underlines my central complaint with this episode (which I happen to be watching at this very moment) that Anakin's fall was not as dark as it should have been. I felt that Anakin, in order to make it more convincing to me, should have killed Windu himself and done so almost...gleefully, for lack of a better phrase. If trust was the central tenet to Anakin's fall, then turning it against Windu in Palpatine's lair would have made his fall to the dark side more convincing as well as more...evil. Just my opinion.
  9. chopman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2005
    star 1
    Trust has nothing to do with it, because then you're saying that Anakin had to agree with the Jedi. The key to his fall is that fact that he was afraid. If he had just let things happen as they had and not had tried to interfere, then things would have worked out. But he was afraid of losing Padme and stuck his nose where it didn't belong.
  10. Carnotaur3 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2004
    star 3
    The power of half truths.
  11. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    between anakin and padme, there were some trust issues. anakin was worried about obi-wan "moving in." anakin didn't trust either of them enough (he was guilty of it, as much as the jedi order was).
  12. JediNdaCity Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2002
    star 3
    Remember, Padme brings up the trust issue also when they are on the balcony:

    "When are we going to feel comfortable enough to trust each other?"
  13. adamlee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2004
    star 2
    I think the theme involving truths is that they all come from a certain point of view.There is an old saying,there are three sides to every story,your side,my side,and the truth.To Anakin,walking in on Mace with the Emperor in such a weak position probably made it look like they were conspiring to take over.Who is to say that he didn't believe that?And I totally think that what turned Vader back to Anakin is that this person who he barely knows loved him enough to reach out to him.Obi Wan and the rest of the Jedi were caring,but it always came with a scold or some type of judgment.Unconditional love brought him back and the absolute faith in him showed him he was strong enough to redeem himself.
  14. Carnotaur3 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2004
    star 3
    Nice observation, adamlee!
  15. adamlee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2004
    star 2
    Thank you Carnotaur.I mean really I think that is why he turned to the Emperor to begin with.He felt cared for.When you are hurt or confused,who do we initially go to?the person who is going to tell us "You shouldn have done this!" or the person who says "Well,I understand." The latter obviously.Even in ROTJ the Emperor plays up the bond.Vader bows and the Emperor says rise my old friend.Obi Wan and Anakin had a relationship but I think it was more of a big brother who holds the little brother down type.at least in anakin's eyes it was.
  16. i_dont_know Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2005
    star 4
    Nice topic. It surprises me how much it appears the issue of trust comes up in this movie.

    When did Anakin ever want Palpatine removed from office? Going by the movies, he's had unwavering support for Palpatine since Episode 2.

    I agree, I would have liked to see Anakin take out Mace.
    There is a lot that doing things as you described would interfere with though. Anakin would be less believable as "The good man who was your father", and also, much of the tie-in to ROTJ would be lost. I love that his two turns involve Sidious frying a Jedi while Anakin makes a decision, and it is pretty trippy seeing Sidious doing this from the "weaker" position in ROTS.
    Also, his ROTS decision allows the Jedi frying to commence (lol), but his ROTJ decision stops the Jedi's pain and transfers the electricity to himself and Sidious. The two characters jointly responsible for Mace's death in Ep3. It's all very planned out.

    Trust is still a central issue in this scene. If Mace wasn't finally trusting Anakin here, he would have seen Anakin's actions coming (kind of ironic I guess). Look at how Mace looks at Anakin when he arrives. He isn't angry that Anakin has disobeyed orders and followed him. It looks more like "Phew, I have backup!" Making it all the more shocking when Anakin turns his lightsabre on Mace.
    And as this thread has already stated, Palpatine was completely trusting in Anakin. IMO he was confident enough to throw his lightsabre out the window because he trusted that Anakin was on his way to rescue him.
  17. AnnLouise Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    star 3
    That goes back, IMO, to GL and his half&half attitude towards Anakin. For every bad, unforgivable, or evil thing Anakin does, there's a mitigating circumstance/reason; we're supposed to "understand" why the main character of the PT does what he does. GL wants his main villain to be redeemable, so Anakin can't go to the lengths needed to make his turn less abrupt in ROTS. If he went as dark as you describe, the "redemption" wouldn't be possible, because there would not be some small part of Darth Vader saying "what am I doing?"
  18. THE_JEDIPURGE20 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2001
    star 2
    Prior to spoilers, I truly believed Anakin's fall would have been along the lines mentioned in other posts. One that emphasized the loss of someone you could never think about losing and that would precipitate the murdering of anyone because it in his eyes would have been justified. I would have attempted to write in Padme dying in child birth prior to him turning.

    Having said that, I don't know how those subplots could've would've been written or played out on screen, however I do not think this greed and trust leading him to the dark side side really justifies the means.
  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Greed stems from not wanting to lose things. We want it all. And when we have it all, we want more. We can never quinch that thirst. That need to have everything. To own everything. To control everything. Anakin wanted to be both a Jedi and a family man. He couldn't be both. And when he lost his mother, he couldn't accept that and it drove him to do horrible things. He put all of his attachments and obsessions on Padme, which just made things worse. And when things were going to change again, as they have before, he freaks out. Anakin's a control freak. He cannot accept change. It was set up well in TPM.

    Anakin: "I don't want things to change."

    Shmi: "You can't stop the change, Ani."

    His greediness is that he doesn't want things to change. And to prevent the change, he needs to be all powerful. It's the only way he can compensate. It's the only way he can handle anything. Palpatine tells him that through the Dark Side, can he save the ones that he loves. If he can stop Padme from dying, then he can stop the change from happening. Life is about change and Anakin could not accept it.
  20. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    It could be argued then, that because of Anakin's Fear and Greed, he failed to trust in the Living Force...[face_thinking]
  21. adamlee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2004
    star 2
    good call sithstarslayer.Anakin doesn't trust in the force,he manipulates the force to get what he wants.The irony is he never gets what he wants.
  22. DS_Emp_Viper Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2001
    star 4
    Luke:"Your over confidence is your weakness"

    Palpatine:"Your faith in your friends is yours"

    I think this also tell true to Anakin as well. Anakin is the exact opposite of Luke and does not trust his friends(for good reason). When Padme asks if they should go to Obi-wan, Anakin immediatly dismisses the idea....another reason Luke succeded and Anakin fell.

    Ultimately I think Luke's friends were more trustworthy to begin with, while Anakin had a bunch of "I dont trust this guy" people around him, Luke had a sort of "Your our last hope" vibe.
  23. adamlee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2004
    star 2
    I agree.Luke also didn't have his friends putting pressure on him.Can you imagine how much pressure it must be to hold the name of the chosen one? And Han and Leia were always supportive.Even Obi Wan never seemed to hold him down.Yes Luke and Anakin's lives were like night and day.
  24. UPwind-ooooh Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2003
    star 2
    ^^^^
    "Luke and Anakin's lives were like night and day"

    Hmmm!
    - both raised on Tatooine
    - Anakin loses his mother there, Luke his surrogate parents, Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru
    - both are 'slaves' -- Anakin literally and Luke metaphorically
    - both are trained 'too late' into the Jedi order
    - both wished to save one's that they loved and cared for (Anakin his mother and Padme, Luke his friends, sister and father)
    - both lost their right hands to the Sith
    - both were coveted by the Emperor as his apprentice


  25. adamlee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2004
    star 2
    ooh and they both are named Skywalker too! jk.

    I mean morally they are different.
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