The Theme of Trust - The Key to Anakin's Fall?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by jedi_jacks, Dec 28, 2005.

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  1. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Yes, Anakin never puts his faith in the Force. He never once meditates on it to see if what Yoda told him was right. Obi-wan is always telling him to stop and use the Force. To think. When Obi-wan says that he failed Anakin, the original line was different.

    Obi-wan: "I have failed you Anakin. I could never teach you to think."

    Anakin never really thinks things through and he never consults the Force.

    Obi-wan: "Stop, Anakin. Think. Use the Force."
  2. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    Hmmm!
    - both raised on Tatooine
    - Anakin loses his mother there, Luke his surrogate parents, Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru
    - both are 'slaves' -- Anakin literally and Luke metaphorically
    - both are trained 'too late' into the Jedi order
    - both wished to save one's that they loved and cared for (Anakin his mother and Padme, Luke his friends, sister and father)
    - both lost their right hands to the Sith
    - both were coveted by the Emperor as his apprentice



    That's just a list of things and circumstances.
    Their personalities and character are quite, quite
    dissimilar.

    Luke, a slave? Hardly, he could have turned his back
    on Owen and Beru anytime and submitted his application
    to the academy. His loyalty to his family
    is what made him stay. His head would not have
    exploded from microscopic implants had he left the farm.

    Anakin's training too late is what damns him.
    Luke's training too late is what saves him.
  3. THE_JEDIPURGE20 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2001
    star 2
    I just realized Luke's ability to let go Aunt Beru, Uncle Owen and Ben in such a short time was nothing short of miraculous. I wonder if this test of resiliency was being monitored by Yoda. If so, he must of been impressed.
  4. Carnotaur3 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2004
    star 3
    That's because Luke trusted his instincts. He felt he should "become a Jedi like my father."

    Also: Qui Gone Jinn (to Anakin): TRUST your instincts.
  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Luke loved Owen and Beru, but he was willing to leave them behind and move on. Their deaths just gave him a clear conscious. But when he began to grow in the Force on Dagobah, that's when his attachment issues surfaced. He didn't want to lose Han and Leia. He felt that he was strong enough to protect them. He didn't take their feelings into consideration. Only his own. This sets the stage for Luke wanting to prevent change from happening in ROTJ. Wanting to protect his loved ones. Feeling that he's not powerful enough to save them.

    Just like his father did. Once the training begins, that's where the dangers with attachments come in. Because you feel the Force and your emotions can get the best of you.
  6. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    But Luke didn't murder anyone in order to save his loved ones like his father did and he didn't allow his emotions to control him either (although he almost did when Anakin/Vader threaten to turn Leia into a Sith) which shows that in the end, Luke was nothing like Anakin.
  7. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    True, Luke hadn't killed in hate like his father did. Though that was the whole point of the duel in ROTJ. To start the duel, Palpatine goaded Luke into trying to kill in anger and hate. Then Vader hit the right button to bring Luke right to the edge. But that one thing aside, both had many similarities.

    -Both raised on Tatooine.
    -Both had family lives.
    -Both had attachment issues.
    -Both were excellent pilots.
    -Both strong in the Force.
    -Both recruited by a Jedi to fight the Sith.
    -Both had a lot of anger in them.
    -Both were impatient.
    -Both nearly died while fighting a beast.
    -Both lost their right hand in their first duel with a Sith.
    -Both were drawn out of hiding by visions of their loved ones in pain.
    -Both wore dark clothing, complete with a glove on the right hand.
    -Both flew with Artoo Detoo.
    -Both were told by Yoda that they were told old to begin the training.
    -Both were taught by Obi-wan, though for different lengths of time.
    -Both achieved fame early in their careers.
    -Both were Commanders in the military.
    -Both were Red Five in their fighter squadrons.
    -Both had scar(s) of their faces, though from different means.
    -Both were being seduced by the Dark Lord of the Sith.

    But though they are similar, they are also different.
  8. Carnotaur3 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2004
    star 3
    Do you think...

    Luke was the other half Anakin? And they were the balance of the force? Crazy! :p
  9. Darth_Mongoulus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2005
    star 1
    Okay, I don't know where people get the notion that Luke never killed in hate. Look at ANH right after Obi-Wan dies and Luke screams, "NOOOO!" He then proceeds to blast stormtroopers left and right, ignoring Han and Leia's plee to leave and escape. Earlier in the same movie Luke says he hates the Empire. Now, imagine if Luke was as skilled with a lightsaber as Anakin was in AOTC. Can you say, "Stormtrooper Slaughter?"
  10. Carnotaur3 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2004
    star 3
    Luke didn't start fireing at the Storm Troopers until they did.
  11. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Luke wasn't using the Force in anger & hate, like Anakin did with those that he killed. That's the difference. If you use the Force in anger and hate, then you will sucumb to the Dark Side. It's power will be too addictive and too readily available.
  12. JediCouncilMaster Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2005
    star 6
    Anakin was too attached. He is a heathen. He would die for Padme, if that makes any sense.

    THEME: "In every tyrant's heart there springs in the end this poison, that he cannot trust a friend"
    -Aeschylus-
  13. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    That's right, they have differences such as:

    -Anakin had a mother and a pregnant wife to worry about while Luke doesn't have either.
    -Anakin didn't have a father to reflect his flaws on like Luke did.
    -Anakin had a Sith Lord playing mind tricks with his head since he was a halfling boy but Luke does not.
    - Luke had a lot of friends while Anakin only had 1 who unbeknownst to him is a Sith Lord.
    -Luke was not moody, troubled, or had an ego as big as the Empire State Building like Anakin did.
    - There was no Jedi Order around by the time Luke was born so he didn't feel like he was held back like Anakin did.
    -Luke recieved love and appreciation from everyone he knew while Anakin only recieved it from Padme and his mom.
    -Anakin's family was still alive when he left to start his Jedi training while Luke's family were killed before he could start his.

    and finally,

    -the most obvious being that Anakin gave in to the Dark Side while Luke refused to do the same.


    The stuff that I listed has me thinking....that Anakin was damned for having attachments while Luke was saved because he was allowed to have attachments.
  14. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    The stuff that I listed has me thinking....that Anakin was damned for having attachments while Luke was saved because he was allowed to have attachments.

    i don't really think this is the distinction.

    to me it looks like having to hide them is bigger than having or no having. coz we all have them.
  15. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Hiding his relationship isn't what does Anakin in. It's having an attachment to someone that he loves and not be willing to let them go, when the time comes, that does it. It's being so selfish that he doesn't consider what his wife wants, that kills their relationship. Anakin would still feel the way he does, because he cannot let go of his loved ones.

    He has his sister, Han, Chewbacca, Lando, Threepio, Artoo and Wedge.

    True. I'll give you that one.

    I'll give that one to you, as I've said that before.

    - Luke had a lot of friends while Anakin only had 1 who unbeknownst to him is a Sith Lord. [/quote]

    He had plenty of friends. He had Qui-gon, Threepio, Artoo, Obi-wan, Bariss Offee, Jar Jar, Wald, Kister and the ultimate best friend, Padme.

    Luke was moody. He hated not being able to leave home. He was restless when it came to his training. He was moody at Obi-wan for not telling the truth about his father. He was troubled by having to face his father, while securing the knowledge that he has a sister. He has a tiny bit of ego when it comes to his training in TESB. He thinks that he is ready and capable of being a Jedi, but Yoda knows that he's not as ready as he likes to think he is.

    Anakin only felt that way because of Palpatine


    He recieved love and appreciation from Padme & Shmi, but he also recieved it from Qui-gon, Yoda and Obi-wan. Obi-wan even says to Anakin that he loved him. A lot of the Younglings looked up to Anakin. Jira appreciated him. Even Watto in his own way.

    Yes, but Luke found a new family in Obi-wan. Then was angry when he died. But then he found another with Han, Leia, Chewie, the droids and the others I mentioned. Anakin had his mother, Padme, his mentors, his friends on Tatooine, Jar Jar and many in the Jedi before the Clone Wars began. They were just as much his family as the Rebels were a family for Luke. Hell, Anakin even has the Lars for a family.

    Luke was saved for letting go of his attachments and acting compassionately. Anakin's saved by letting go of his attachment to power and acting compassionately, because his son showed him how to be compassionate.
  16. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    are they in mortal danger like anakin's mom was?
    huh? QGJ? dead. i have no idea who bariss offee is, but who of these is on coruscant? are you seriously making the lame attempt to sell R2 and 3PO as 'friends'? try harder, sinister.
    i don't think luke had the idea he was supposed to safe the universe.
    he felt that way because this is part of what happened. there were things about the force not even the jedi knew.
    QGJ is dead. didn't you see the end of TPM? who on earth is jira? do you have to draw on the EU to support your argument? OWK says it after he nearly kills him. talk about mixed messages.
    anakin didn't have his mom. he was taken from his mom. did you even watch the PT?
    so what works for luke miraculously is detrimental for anakin. why? because you say so?
  17. THEFORCEROCKS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2004
    star 4
    anakin didn't have his mom. he was taken from his mom. did you even watch the PT?

    Anakin was taken from his mom or did he choose to go? You make it seem like the JEdi abducted Anakin and that is not the case right?

    darth-sinister posted:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Luke was saved for letting go of his attachments and acting compassionately. Anakin's saved by letting go of his attachment to power and acting compassionately, because his son showed him how to be compassionate.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    so what works for luke miraculously is detrimental for anakin. why? because you say so?

    Well lucas did say Luke says no and Anakin says Yes. Luke saves his father anakin fails to save Padme.
  18. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Luke had one thing that Anakin could never have had.

    Anakin: "I can't do it." - The Phantom Menace
    Luke: "I can't do it, Artoo." - Return of the Jedi

    Although I accept there are differences between these two examples - I think they both represent our respective protagonists succumbing to that key theme of the saga.
    Attachment.
    Fear of change.
    Anakin cannot face leaving his mother behind - he cannot face the world without her.
    Luke cannot face his destiny without the guidance of his mentor, Yoda.
    Both are willing to throw in the towel, simply because they cannot face up to the future - because they cannot accept change.

    Luke, however, gets this: "Yoda and I will always be with you."

    Now I'm not implying that being told that Shmi, or Padmé will come back as ghostly apparitions would have helped Anakin.
    I'm just saying that it is symbolic - the Jedi must change themselves, not Anakin.
    I think I was discussing this in another thread yesterday.
    This whole thing about leaving Anakin on Tatooine, about treating Anakin "better" - it's a bit of a red herring for me.
    Pampering Anakin is not a solution.
    The problem is the Jedi themselves and their attitude to themselves and their own lives.

    They focused on the terrible future that may lay ahead of Anakin.
    Qui-Gon focused on what Anakin was in the present - a sweet, innocent, good person.

    Your focus, as QGJ himself said, determines your reality.
  19. THEFORCEROCKS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2004
    star 4
    I'm just saying that it is symbolic - the Jedi must change themselves, not Anakin.

    So gig what you are saying is that the jedi need to fit into anakin's world but anakin does not need to fit into their world is that correct?
  20. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5

    Hmm.
    No, not really.
    I think, more than anything, I'm saying that - just because there is a problem, doesn't always mean there is an answer.
    I've tried to get my head around this idea that taking Anakin away from Tatooine and his mother was a bad thing - and therefore the solution must be to leave Anakin there.
    I just don't see how that solves anything.
  21. THEFORCEROCKS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2004
    star 4
    I've tried to get my head around this idea that taking Anakin away from Tatooine and his mother was a bad thing - and therefore the solution must be to leave Anakin there.
    I just don't see how that solves anything.


    Well I dont know umm if they do leave him there what if he grows more attached. So is he meant to be a jedi or is he meant to stay on Tatooine. Also lets say hypothetically he is left on Tatooine and either the sith get him or he gets killed(not to say that he would)how is the prophecy fulfilled?
  22. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    ...Whereas, we know that taking Anakin away from Tatooine did, however harrowing the journey may have been, definitely bring us to ROTJ and Anakin fulfilling the prophecy, yeah.
  23. Dezdmona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 4
    GIG - We're on the same wavelength. I've been posting the same stuff on another thread. :p
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Luke thought that Han, Leia and Chewie were in mortal danger when he went to Bespin. And they were in danger with the Death Star trap. So, yeah.

    Qui-gon was his friend before his death. Even afterwards, until he turned, he considered Qui-gon a friend.

    Bariss is a Jedi Padawan/Knight and they were friends. They worked together on a couple of missions, before the Clone Wars.

    Yes. Anakin said that Threepio was a great pal to him, before he left Tatooine. He was awed to see Threepio was at the moisture farm. He replaced the armor with the golden one that we see today. He and Artoo flew together at Naboo. He trusted Artoo to keep watch of Padme. He said that they have Artoo rely on, if he and Padme get into trouble when they were walking towards the transport. He flew with Artoo during the latter part of the Clone Wars, even praising him often. And defending him from "Loose Wire" jokes from Obi-wan. Luke also sees the droids as friends. They were his best 'men' at the wedding and both served as 'witnesses'

    The Skywalker men both care for the droids, even when Threepio can be irritating.

    Are you serious? That's all Obi-wan and Yoda say.

    Yoda: "Only a full trained Jedi, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor."

    Yoda: "One thing remains. Vader. You must face Vader. And confront him you will."

    Ben: "Then the Emperor has already won. You were our last hope."

    Ben: "You can't escape your destiny Luke, you must face Darth Vader again."

    Well he was wrong. There was no power to cheat death. He had to accept people die.

    Qui-gon may be dead, but he was alive when Anakin knew him. Just cause someone dies, that doesn't mean that you still don't consider them a friend or family.

    Jira is the old woman that sells Anakin those treats, just before the Sandstorm hits in TPM.

    He's loved him for years. He still loves him. But Anakin's dead to him. He was trying to kill Vader.

    Obviously you didn't. He wasn't taken. His mom gave him up. Qui-gon freed him and then gave him two options. Stay on Tatooine or go to Courscant to become a Jedi. His mother said it was up to him, but she would support his decision. Anakin always has his mother. Before and after he leaves.

    No, because Lucas says so. And it's clear as crystal in the films.

    If Anakin left when he was twenty, he would've been able to let go of his mother. Luke was just about that age when he left home. In fact, he was wanting to leave home. At nine, it's hard for a child to accept change on such a level. He could, but it takes time. Luke could accept change, he just f
  25. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Not being allowed to have attachments is what made Anakin selfish in the first place. The fact that the Jedi wouldn't allow him to see his mom or Padme is why he couldn't let go of them both, why he massacred the Tuskens once his mother died, and why he had to hide his relationship with Padme. The "no attachments" rules may have worked in the past generations for the Jedi but it doesn't work for someone like Anakin because he craves to be loved and appreciated.

    There is a difference between friendship and love.

    Love is more powerful than friendship and since Luke didn't experience the love for a woman like Anakin did, then it's not a real comparison (and don't mention the lip-lock between Luke and Leia because that's just disgusting).

    Qui-Gon is dead, there's no emotional connection between Anakin and R2/3PO, he never met Barriss Offee, he never saw Jar Jar, Wald, or Kitser again once he started his training, and Padme became his wife. As for Obi-wan, Anakin's feelings for him are mixed since he goes from "Your the closest thing I have to a father" to "I HATE YOU!"

    I meant moody in the sense that he didn't felt loved or appreciated like Anakin when he's working with the Jedi, troubled about not being allowed to be with the people he loves, and proclaiming himself to be "the most powerful Jedi ever".

    Well, that and the fact that Anakin knew that the Jedi didn't trust him since day 1.

    You had me until you mentioned Yoda and Obi-wan because Yoda wanted nothing to do with Anakin and Obi-wan waited too late to start appreciating Anakin. Oh and Anakin never saw Jira and Watto again once he left Tatooine to start his training.

    But Luke still relied on his attachment to his father once the Emperor started his power voltage and that's what enabled Anakin to finally make the right choice.
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