The Theme of Trust - The Key to Anakin's Fall?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by jedi_jacks, Dec 28, 2005.

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  1. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Wow - once again, this has to be one of the most devisive issues I've seen.

    I couldn't disagree with you more.
    Anakin became selfish because he wasn't allowed to see his mom and Padmé?
    I'm sorry, he had pledged himself to the Jedi.
    The Jedi foolishly caved in and decided to train someone who was too old and already full of the pre-cursors to greed and anger.
    Anakin knew attachement was forbidden, he knew marriage was forbidden - why do people paint that as Anakin is being abused by the Jedi?
    Those rules apply across the board, and are fundamental to being a Jedi - in the PT and in the OT.
    Anakin blatantly ignored those rules.

    Once again, Anakin was not too young to be taken from Tatooine - he was too old.
    Luke was too old too.
    Training both were incredible risks, risks the Jedi, sadly, had to take.
    Anakin fell, Luke didn't.

    Anakin chose to leave Tatooine - he wasn't taken.
    Anakin was damaged goods and too fearful to train by the time he reached Coruscant. Leaving him on Tatooine doesn't cure anything, he is still harbouring that attachment to his mother. There still comes a time when he has to leave, and there is no guarantee that he will be any less attached to her then. Unless the plan is to try and trick the Sith into taking a vacation on Tatooine and pushing them in the direction of the untrained Anakin...

    If Anakin's flaws are that he craves to be loved and appreciated - pandering to those flaws only perpetuates them, not cures them.
    That is exactly what Palpatine did - massaged his ego; offered him bogus solutions to his fear of mortality.
    Palpatine did that because he is an evil ***hole.
    Creating a new set of special "Anakin rules" is not the way forward for the Jedi.
    It certainly wasn't the way forward for Luke - his attachments were just as dangerous and almost lead to his downfall, just like Anakin's.
  2. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    no, they weren't provided with a bomb attached to their bodies that could randomly kill them. they were nowhere near shmi's position.
    yeah, the point is that he is no longer around. dead friends are great but they will no longer be able to be there for you. i'm sure you know that. so, we ccan safely scratch QGJ off the list for moral support.
    okay, yes, he has no problem with the droids and sees them as friends. i would agree with that. i justs till think it's lame to sell them like regualr friends since he doesn't let them in on stuff and they don't understand the complexity of emotions.
    yes, they do. but i wouldn't sell them as friends in the sense that they have an influence on anakin as other people do.
    not when he's tenyo. not when OWK takes him to alderaan (not to my recollection at least) it's vital that they don't entrust him with this horrid task until he is old enough to make decisions for himself.
    we cheat death all the time.'sides: the jedi didn't know about force ghosts themselves. or do you dispute that as well?
    as i said, that's just like saying my grandma is still there for me. she isn't. or do your dead friends live on to talk with you? i don't really see how a fond memory and appreciation amount to a real and present friendship. i only see that the point you are trying to make is that QGJ was a friend of anakin, to which i agree, but he has handle over him after he's dead. or do you debate that?
    good god, that's not even coruscant! seriously, of course he is liked on his home planet! which makes it even more obvious there aren't many people looking out for him in the capital.
    well, he loves him so much, he denies all chance of redemption. funny ho
  3. thechozn1 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2005
    star 4
    Nice subject JediJacks I guess in my holiday daze [face_tired] I missed it.

    I still say it was just about Anakin being selfish though. It probably played a part that he didn't feel trusted, but Anakin never them many reasons to trust him. He wasn't stupid and surely knew that.
  4. THEFORCEROCKS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2004
    star 4
    The Jedi foolishly caved in and decided to train someone who was too old and already full of the pre-cursors to greed and anger.

    Yeah but was Anakin meant to be a JEDI GIG? I am curious to know.

    Anakin knew attachement was forbidden, he knew marriage was forbidden - why do people paint that as Anakin is being abused by the Jedi?
    I dont know the answer to that one but since he is the chosen one maybe the rules dont apply to him Right :rolleyes:



    Those rules apply across the board, and are fundamental to being a Jedi - in the PT and in the OT.
    Anakin blatantly ignored those rules
    .

    Yeah but think about this GIG and this is just an theory, had he not ignored the rules then if the JEdi order is wiped out who could redeem him. There would be no luke or leia

    Once again, Anakin was not too young to be taken from Tatooine - he was too old.


    Then what can be somewhat concluded is Anakin probably wasnt meant to be a JEDI? what if he stays on tatooine and he still has a hard time letting go of his mother at the age of 19 or 20, then what?


    Once again, Anakin was not too young to be taken from Tatooine - he was too old.
    Luke was too old too.
    Training both were incredible risks, risks the Jedi, sadly, had to take.
    Anakin fell, Luke didn't
    .

    agree with this i do

    Agreed with this i do
  5. masterjedi747 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2004
    star 3
    Yes, they did. Some more than others, certainly, but as a whole Anakin did well in his Jedi training. You forget that trust isn't something that is simply given out....it must be EARNED. And Anakin didn't always deserve their trust....in many cases, he wasn't earning it. He would acting rashly and disregard the rules....too often for comfort. So the Jedi kept on instructing him, and then letting him try again. But you also make it sound as if the Jedi never trusted him enough to even let him brush his own teeth in the morning. People seem to forget that there was a nearly 20 YEAR period where Anakin wasn't having too many problems. It wasn't until just before the Clone Wars that his attachment issues really began to surface, beginning with his fear of the loss of his mother. Letting go and accepting change was just something that Anakin could never seem to understand, no matter how many times the Jedi tried to teach it to him. And it's not because he couldn't....it's because he didn't WANT to let go. It was his decision, and his alone, all along. Unfortunately, he wouldn't accept that for another 23 years.
  6. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Well, as Yoda says in the novelisation: "Jedi training, the sole source of self-discipline is not."
    But that, I believe, is a Stoverism, rather than being part of Lucas' script - I might be wrong.
    It certainly makes sense, but it hardly proves that Anakin shouldn't have ever been a Jedi.
    He should have been a better person, a more disciplined, less fearful person. Whether he is a Jedi or not is irrelavent.
    He can be a good person without being a Jedi, and he can be a bad person without being a Sith.
    Anakin was not the Jedi he should be, and he was aware of that - yet he did nothing to address it.

    Was Anakin meant to be a Jedi?
    The question, perhaps, should be - did he ever really become a Jedi?
    The Jedi he should have been?

    Either way - I think it is of some importance.
    "You've failed, your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me..." - Luke Skywalker

    Well, I guess that's up to the audience.
    Personally, I don't like to think like that.
    For me, the saga is about humans and human frailties - it's kind of a poor message to send out, IMHO, that Anakin is privileged and "deserves" concessions. And that the whole "problem" was that people didn't cave in to the demands of this "golden child".
    Quite the opposite - Anakin's own choices are of consequence.
    This is a fable, a cautionary tale.
    The Jedi make mistakes along the way, and the serpent is whispering in Anakin's ear but, in the end, it is Anakin's own decisions that the saga is about - his downfall and his redemption.
    He is, after all, just a man.
    It is thinking that he is a God which is part of the problem - the Jedi promoting that is hardly a solution - IMHO, anyway.

    So that, in turn, makes Qui-Gon right to bring Anakin to Coruscant and want to train him?
    It makes the Jedi right to train Anakin, after all?
    That line of thinking can make everything that happens in the PT the right thing, because it all leads to balance being brought by Anakin in ROTJ.
    You can't question whether Anakin ignoring the rules was beneficial without also asking whether Mace dying was a good thing, 20 years of galactic oppression was a good thing, the massacre at the temple was a good thing etc etc - because all of those things were part of the chain of events that led to balance in the Force in ROTJ.
    Without any of those terrible things happening, maybe we would not have got to ROTJ, and balance may never have been brought.

    There was dialogue scripted for both AOTC and ROTS which explicitly stated that both Yoda and Mace knew that part of the prophecy was that the Dark Side was destined to grow.
    In ROTS, Yoda was originally to speak with Qui-Gon on Kashyyyk and inquire how the Jedi Order was to die, as if he was resigned to that fate already...

    For me, it is too paradoxical to look at things like that - I may be oversimplifying, but you have to presume that Anakin could have fulfilled his destiny far sooner than he did, had he not fallen from grace the way he did.
    On the one hand - things turned out alright the way they are in the end. Ultimately the Prophecy is fulfilled.
    You've got to balance that with the "best case" scenario, which is that Anakin does not fall to the Dark Side; that he sides with Mace Windu on that fatefull evening; and the Sith are removed from the galaxy there and then and balance is brought without the galaxy having to endure years of oppression and thousands of Jedi are spared.

  7. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    Honestly, i think you should either trust someone or not (like yoda says, "do or do not; there is no try"). if you *don't* trust someone, then dont ask a lot from them. that's the mistake the jedi made, mace windu openly didn't trust anakin and yoda looked doubtful, then don't ask anakin to save the jedi order.

    think about this, obi-wan *did* trust anakin. do you think anakin would have turned with obi-wan right there with him? nope, most people think palpatine *had* to get obi-wan away from anakin to turn him. sidious even says:

    PALPATINE: Every single Jedi, including your friend Obi-Wan Kenobi, is now an enemy of the Republic. You understand that, don't you?

    and mace windu trusted anakin the least, anakin turned on him! do you think sidious would have tried the same stunt with obi-wan instead of mace windu? no way, anakin trusted obi-wan, anakin wouldnt have turned on him like he did with mace windu.
  8. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    and they do it, too. ;)
  9. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Sorry, I've kind of posted in here without actually getting on topic...

    As far as trust is concerned - I think it is a very genuine emotion.
    Anakin, by the time of ROTS, is pretty much lying to himself.
    Does he really trust Palpatine?
    Or does he just convince hismelf that he should, as it makes it easy for him to do what he ends up doing?
    He has assumed a skewed view of what is wrong and right - and therefore his perception of trust is equally skewed.
    He believe's what it is convenient for him to believe.

    "I will do whatever you ask..." - trust has nothing to do with it; that is pure desperation talking. Anakin has sold his soul.
  10. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    Get_in_Gear
    "I will do whatever you ask..." - trust has nothing to do with it; that is pure desperation talking. Anakin has sold his soul.


    i agree with that, but sidious trusts vader to a fault. mace windu . . . not so much. luke, complete trust.
  11. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    what makes you think sid trusts him to a fault?
    i think he gets him to wipe out the order to eleiminate that potential reason to turn back.
  12. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    I think it is not so much a case of Sidious having trust in Anakin - sorry, Vader - the individual, more him being supremely confident... in his own ability; in the Sith's divine right to prevail; in his ability to convert Anakin irrevocably and in his own plans, to succeed.

    "Your overconfidence is your weakness."
    "Your faith in your friends is yours."

    The Sith are, in a way, without faith or trust, except in themselves.
    Look no further than the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise...
    Palpatine is just confident in Vader, because Vader is an extension of his own plans and abilities.
    Palpatine has confidence in his own vision, those individuals realising that vision are just tools.
  13. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    you'd still have to convince me that anakin is a text book sith, though. i think palps is supremely confident but i don't see any confidence in anakin.

  14. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    Get_in_Gear
    I think it is not so much a case of Sidious having trust in Anakin - sorry, Vader - the individual, more him being supremely confident... in his own ability; in the Sith's divine right to prevail; in his ability to convert Anakin irrevocably and in his own plans, to succeed.


    i agree with that. sidious had less trust in anakin than luke, but i still think sidious had more trust in anakin than mace windu. if i made a chart, it would go like this:

    trust points (as it seemed to anakin)

    9 luke (totally running on faith, never knew his father, almost complete trust)
    8 padme (she could have turned him back too, i think)
    8 sidious (tainted, based on selfishness)
    7 obi-wan (his trust was discouraged by yoda and mace)
    6 yoda (he was optimistic)
    3 mace windu (at least mace was honest)
  15. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    They are similar. Han's tortured and then frozen in Carbonite, which he might not even survive. Then he's shipped off to Jabba to either be dinner for the Rancor or the Sarlacc. Fortunately for him, he was kept frozen for a year. Then there's Leia who was tortured by Vader. She'd be tortured again to try and bring Luke out of hiding. And failing that, she'd be executed as a traitor to the Empire. No, they don't have a bomb on them. They have a Death Star that will "blow them up...BOOM!"

    Besides, Shmi got off lucky. She was freed after five years. And Watto had no desire to lose another slave until he was forced to do so. Hell, he even shut the bomb off after Anakin left, to keep her from committing suicide cause Anakin was gone.

    Well, we can't because Qui-gon's a ghost who can speak to Anakin. Anakin just doesn't know that he's there.

    They're still friends. And the people who do understand emotions, he won't confide in them.

    Obi-wan was kept away from Luke, so he couldn't influence him. But when Luke left for Alderaan, Obi-wan was definately influenced him.

    BEN: "You must learn the ways of the Force if you're to come with me to
    Alderaan."

    LUKE: "Alderaan? I'm not going to Alderaan. I've got to go
    home. It's late, I'm in for it as it is."

    BEN: "I need your help, Luke. She needs your help. I'm getting too old
    for this sort of thing."

    Let's not forget that Anakin's mom thought that he could handle leaving home. She must be a bad mother for letting her son make up his own mind at that age.

    We haven't cheated all forms of death. There are still people who die of diseases that we cannot cure. And there are people who die of natural causes, when they're young and healthy. What Anakin wanted to do was wrong and unnatural. He was fighting nature for all the wrong reasons.

    In the end, Anakin winds up being the one to kill her. If he did what Yoda told him to do, she'd live. He wouldn't break her heart.

    I don't dispute that either. Anakin's being selfish thinking that the Jedi can cheat death. But they can't. They aren't interested in exploring that possibility. They're accepting of nature.

    I don't have dead friends, but then who says that they aren't here and talking to me? Who says that I can't see them, either consciously or subconsciously?

    Well, Qui-gon's watched over Anakin and Obi-wan for thirteen years. If Anakin knew that he could commune with him, he'd talk to him. He did talk to Yoda who learned how to commune with
  16. The_Chibi_Kiriyama Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2005
    star 1
    I notice that in the entire trust theme there is mention about him having never 'consulted with the Force'. Sorry if I'm a bit slow or am reading into TPM too much, but how could Anakin consult with the flow of midi-chlorians in his body? :confused: And if it is a higher state of existence like the movies hint at pre-TPM, then I can't see how he could benefit from consulting with it seeing as how the same Force Yoda claims to have intimate knowledge of empowers Sidious' predictions as well. I guess what I'm trying to say is this: how could Anakin consult with a presence that seems to be neutral in the Jedi-Sith power struggle and can be percieved by either side in a different fashion? If all you guys meant was that he needed to calm down and re-think what was happening from a neutral perspective I could understand, but it seems you view the Force as a technique from which he could see with clarity. I just don't see how that point of view is possible, given that the same perception of the Force is what motivated him to kill wantonly and become a Sith.
  17. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    YODA "Run! Yes. A Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware
    of the dark side. Anger...fear...aggression. The dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice."

    LUKE: "Vader. Is the dark side stronger?"

    YODA: "No...no...no. Quicker, easier, more seductive."

    LUKE: "But how am I to know the good side from the bad?"

    YODA: "You will know. When you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

    ANAKIN: "Master, sir...I've been wondering...what are Midichlorians?"

    QUI-GON: "Midichlorians are a microscopic lifeform that reside within all living cells and communicates with the Force."

    ANAKIN: "They live inside of me?"

    QUI-GON: "In your cells. We are symbionts with the Midichlorians."

    ANAKIN: "Symbionts?"

    QUI-GON: "Life forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the Midichlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force."

    ANAKIN: "They do??"

    QUI-GON: "When you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them speaking to you."

    ANAKIN: "I don't understand."

    QUI-GON: "With time and training, Ani...you will."

    If Anakin stoped to listen to the Force, listened to it's will, he can hear what the Force wants him to do. But he is filled with too many emotions. He is not calming himself and finding his center. In doing so, he will know what the right thing is to do. His insight will serve him well. He will know that what he is doing is wrong and that the true way to go, is the way of the Jedi. But he doesn't. He's continues to rely on his emotions and thus he only makes things worse. Only through Luke's exampled, does he finally hear the will of the Force tell him that he was wrong all along. And that he can undo some of the damage, by saving his son and destroying Palpatine.

    When all else fails, a Jedi needs to meditate on the Force and find their center. Find their focus. To let go of everything that they fear to lose, will they be able to make calm and rational decisions.
  18. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Anakin pledged himself to the Jedi without knowing that his mother wasn't coming with him until he asked Qui-Gon and when he did, that is when his attachment issues began. That is why Anakin couldn't let go of his mom and before he arrived on Coruscant, he didn't know any of that "attachment is forbidden" stuff and the Jedi were too arrogant to believe that Anakin can simply forget about his mom and Padme like they believe that he's just like any other Jedi when they should know that he's not and that he won't let go of his loved ones.

    Denying someone like Anakin the right to be with his loved ones will only increase his anger and greed.


    Obi-wan did the same thing with Luke and yet Luke didn't turn evil so if he can succeed with Luke, then Obi-wan and the Jedi should've done the same for Anakin.

    MasterJedi747=

    But ever since Anakin was told by the Council that he won't be trained and overhearing Obi-wan call him "dangerous", Anakin feels as if he's not welcomed by the Jedi and it didn't help matters when they criticize him for missing his mother. They never gave Anakin a chance before he started giving them reasons not to do so because they were too concerned about his "clouded" future.
  19. SithStarSlayer PT & SWTV Ntwadumela: he who greets with fire

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Darth Sinister
    Posted:

    "When all else fails, a Jedi needs to meditate on the Force and find their center. Find their focus. To let go of everything that they fear to lose, will they be able to make calm and rational decisions."


    Yeah, too bad they don't make a Jedi "easy button". Spot on observation DS./>

  20. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The Jedi don't expect Anakin to forget Padme and Shmi. They expect him to train himself to let go of his attachments to them. He can still love them, he just doesn't need to be afraid to lose them.
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