ST The TLJ constructive catch-all analysis and debate thread

Brilliant! I hadn’t joined up those dots before, but that definitely works in the overall saga story and adds weight to why he would want to turn his back on the Jedi and the Galaxy and retreat into seclusion. Once you star down the dark path etc. etc.

 

Exactly. I'd love to know if RJ was thinking of the cave when he wrote those scenes. I think it's possible, and I like that he wove the "a certain point of view" idea into the narrative, whilst also tapping back into SW's original Kurosawa inspirations. That's why accusations of "lazy writing" don't fly at all with me. Is the script perfect? No. Are their moments of plot logic that might arguably have been clarified more? Arguably. But from a character and thematic POV, there is some very thoughtful and smart writing in this script. I can't wait till we can download it and study it.

This scene works so well with TLJ in my opinion ( so long as you accept that Luke's hubris blinds him, that we take Luke's confession as presented and that his instinctive reaction is portrayed as a mistake - all three aspects the film takes the time and effort to present a case for).

 

I guess - while the execution in AOTC gets in the way imo - you could also look at the Tusken hut as a similar echo of both the dave and Ben's hut as well. A Skywalker has a vision of suffering, and driven by rage or fear ignites their blade. Each action plays out differently, but in the AOTC and TLJ book-ends, darkness is hardened in both cases. I still have many issues with the PT, but for me, it's the first time a film that follows chronologically after them (in terms of the timeline) actively improves them as part of the overall saga.

 

I cannot help but wondering if that number is not random...
13 were Luke’s students, a dozen plus Ben.
But later on, on Crait it is specifically pointed out that the skyspeeders
are 13 on total.
It may be a coincidence... but I don’t know.
The fact that the movie focus on the same number twice may not be that random.
However, if I remember well 6 are the skyspeeders that survive.
Finn, Rose, Poe and I remember 3 other persons with him in the trench
(an alien, a woman and a men).

About the cave... I believe it’s the reverse if compared to the scene of ep. v
As it has to be.

Luke didn’t know the truth, that Vader was his father.
He fights him, he wins the fight but that is when he sees his face under Vader’s
mask. The danger for him being to discover and face that truth.

Rey knows who she is, who her parents are, etc...
But she’s afraid to admit the truth.
That is way she sees shadows becoming herself.
The danger for her being do not accept/admit that truth.

 

Aha so the mystery is solved! His name is Stoke not Snoke. Just one little consonant was all it took

 

Not at all. They are well aware of the darkness rising around them. What they weren't aware of at first was the return of the Sith.

Luke has no excuse since he knew of Snoke and the First Order. So again he's making a way out connection to his total failure about dealing with evident trouble compared to the ingenius plan of Sidious that didn't reveal itself until it was all but over.

Even worse he felt the darkness in Ben and responded by sneaking into his quarters at night (which were out of the temple itself) doing the Force meld then igniting the blade.

Luke really had to stretch to equate his totally abysmal failure to the previous Jedi. The problem is that we don't get to really see this hubris-filled Luke who apparently makes the PT Jedi seem only minor in their flaws.

 

I’m not sure that’s true, tbh.


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I just found these drafts in my notes - I must have been using them for the TFA development thread, but they have new context in the light of TLJ. I have no idea where they came from - and the line about Kira being revealed as a legacy character now seems like incorrect supposition. But if that is all correct, it's an even clearer timeline of how all the major backstory points were in play from back when George was still involved. Is there anything obvious incorrect in there?

Summer 2012 (EW/WGA): Shortly after her hiring, Kathleen Kennedy contacts Michael Arndt to inquire about his interest in writing the entire sequel trilogy. Arndt demurs, but accepts the Episode VII job. Kennedy's Episode VII pitch to Arndt is "the origin story of a female Jedi".

Summer/Fall of 2012 (EW/WGA): Arndt begins initial work on Episode VII in concert with Kennedy and Lucas. At that time, the plot is about "Kira", a young woman whose village is attacked by the villains, and goes to find Luke Skywalker. Initial MacGuffins discussed include the remains of Darth Vader and ancient Jedi artifacts. The villain is called "The Jedi Killer". It is likely at this stage that Kira is revealed to be a legacy character by the end of the script. Arndt discovers that once the story reaches Luke, it becomes hard to return the focus to the younger characters, so the choice is made to have the younger characters save the day at the end of the script themselves and then find Luke. From there, the story naturally moves to have the location of Luke be a central MacGuffin/mystery. There are even discussions that Luke may not appear until Episode IX, but it is decided the film should end with Luke Skywalker. It is also at this time that the initial male lead "Sam" emerged - essentially a Han Solo-type. The full Lucasfilm Ltd. company is informed of the decision to make the sequel trilogy in September 2012.

January 9, 2013 (Art of Force Awakens): The formal story group for Episode VII has its first meeting, including JJ Abrams, Kathleen Kennedy, Michael Arndt, Lawrence Kasdan, Simon Kinberg, Kiri Hart, Rick Carter, and the Visualists. It is at this meeting that the "junk planet" Jakku is pitched by Michael Arndt. "Kira" being a scavenger on said planet is adopted in the same meeting. They pick five images from Kurosawa films to outline the film tracking Kira's journey from fearful scavenger to burgeoning Jedi. Lucas' outlines are provided to the group. Anakin Skywalker's lightsaber playing a critical role in the film is in play at this point, as is the "Jedi Killer" having caused some devastating incident that has led to the estrangement of Luke, Han, and Leia.

 

I thought Rey's vision in the DS cave was the Force saying "you could be anybody, but it doesn't matter who your parents are".

Luke's vision was a warning saying "yo, be careful, or you could end up like your father".

 

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That's a really good article.

 

Is it coming up? I can’t seem to post it. If you have it hand then appreciate if you could post it?


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Here you go, mate:



Recently, I went to see the new Star Wars. I know, I wanted to see it sooner, but I have babies. Anyway, getting home from the cinema, I was curious to see what people were saying about the movie, and what I discovered surprised me. While most critics and many fans loved it as much as I did, there was also a passionate contingent who decidedly didn’t.

I was intrigued. A lot of my favorite movies polarize audiences. Many, many voices had much to say, and I only got through reading a tiny speck of it, but right away, I noticed a recurring theme in the various objections. In fact, I noticed a number of recurring themes, and I’m tempted to write down my thoughts about several of them. But in the interest of brevity (and the likelihood that I actually manage to finish writing this), I’ll limit myself to this one:

What happened to Luke Skywalker?

Before I dive into what I think, forgive me for prefacing just a bit more. I should say, the writer and director of The Last Jedi, Rian Johnson, is a good friend of mine. I played the protagonist in two of his movies, Brick and Looper, and in fact, for the sake of some kind of brotherly streak, he gave me cameos in his other two movies, The Brothers Bloom, and this one. However, and this is important, I’m NOT speaking for him here. He doesn’t even know I’m writing this. I guess I should probably make sure it’s cool with him if I’m gonna post it publicly. I’ll worry about that later. But for now, I’m gonna repeat myself, because I want to be really clear, this is just my own opinion, and in no way do I carry any special authority on this movie. I’m probably biased in its favor, but then again, we’re all biased somehow, so there’s that.

I also wanna say, I’m not here to tell anybody they’re wrong. Personally, I don’t think it’s possible to be wrong when it comes to movies, or art, or literature, or whatever you wanna call it. In our ever more gamified culture, with endless awards shows, publicized box office figures, and the all-knowing Tomatometer, it seems conversations about movies are more and more often put into quantified terms of good and bad, best and worst, right and wrong. And then there’s the twitface-insta-fueled tribalism, people taking sides, pointing fingers and spitting venom at the other guys. There seems to be a lot of that going around right now from both lovers and haters of this movie. Dear oh dear, folks. This isn’t politics or sports. The fruit is in the subjectivity. If you feel differently than I do, I’m 100% cool with that. I think it’s often in these very differences of perspective that movies can be at their most enlightening, helping us learn something about each other and ourselves.

So, with all that said, I’ll ask again… What happened to Luke Skywalker?

The Luke Skywalker we meet in The Last Jedi is very different than the Luke Skywalker we remember from the original Star Wars movies. In the past, Luke was hopeful, an idealist, deeply driven to venture out into the galaxy, find his destiny, and do the right thing, no matter the cost. Now he’s apathetic, cynical even, hunkered down on an island and seemingly passionate about nothing but his own isolation. He’s wasting his talents on an eccentric day-to-day routine of laughable animal husbandry and death-defying spearfishing. When a young potential Jedi with profound aptitude, Rey, comes to find him seeking a mentor, he literally tosses her lightsaber over his shoulder into the dirt. And later, when facing said youngster in combat, he ends up on his knees, defeated.

And even worse than becoming personally weird and physically weak, he’s become morally questionable. The plot hinges on a moment from the recent past where Luke contemplates killing Ben Solo, his own nephew, in his sleep, sensing the young man’s attraction to the dark side of the Force, and fearful of the damage he might cause. I saw the point made several times that decades earlier, in Return of the Jedi, Luke is so righteous, so forgiving, he even refuses to kill the reprehensibly villainous Darth Vader. Clearly this is an enormous departure.

It makes sense that all of this might not feel very good. For so many of us, Luke is the epitome of a hero. He is what we strive to be. He’s also our access point into a world we love. We got to know Star Wars through the eyes of this character. And now, after all this time, we finally get to see him again, and he sorta sucks as a person. He’s disrespecting everything a Jedi is supposed to stand for. Ultimately it feels like he’s disrespecting us. Or, as some fans concluded, this just isn’t the real Luke Skywalker, but rather a bastardization perpetrated by bad storytelling or corporate interests.

And again, if that’s how you feel, more power to you. I think there’s a certain enjoyment to be had from taking a subversive stance against the biggest “Big Hollywood” movie of the year. And I know I couldn’t kill that buzz even if I wanted to. But if you’re feeling disappointed in the man Luke Skywalker has become in The Last Jedi, and maybe it’s getting in the way of you really loving the movie, and you’re kinda wishing you didn’t feel that way, because you want to love the movie… read on.

The way I see it, The Last Jedi takes two big risks in its depiction of Luke.
1) He’s different than he used to be.
2) Not only is he different, he’s changed for the worse.

As for the first risk, he didn’t have to be different. He’s one of the most iconic movie characters ever. A safer bet would have been to bring him back and make him just like he always was. This is what The Force Awakens did exceedingly well. For example, the Han Solo we meet in that movie is pretty much the same charmingly roguish character we loved in the original trilogy. Yes, he’s gotten older, had a kid, but it hardly seems to have changed him much. And that was fine by me. Seeing him again after so many years felt like a sweet reunion with an old friend. So, why not do the same for Luke?

Leaving Luke unchanged would have been a huge missed opportunity. Think about how rare this is. A trilogy of movies is made with a young protagonist played by an actor in his 20s. Then, no fewer than 40 YEARS LATER (A New Hope came out in 1977) this actor gets to play the same character as an older man. I don’t know how many times that has ever happened in the history of movies. Has it ever happened?

This gives the filmmaker and the actor an extraordinary opportunity to tell a story about one of the most universal truths in human experience — getting older. We all get older, and those of us who are lucky enough to survive our youth all face the joys, the terrors, the puzzles, the pitfalls, the surprises, and the inevitabilities that come along with doing so. Re-meeting our beloved protagonist decades after we last saw him, only to learn that the passing years have changed some of his most fundamental qualities, I’ll admit, it’s almost hard to see. But in that glaring contrast between the Luke of old and the new Old Luke, The Last Jedi offers a uniquely fascinating portrayal of a man’s life marching inescapably forward.

Time changes us. Go talk to anybody in their sixties and ask if they feel very different than they did in their twenties. The look on their face will almost surely speak volumes. As do so many such looks from Mark Hamill in what I feel is a beautifully nuanced and heartfelt performance.

The second big risk I mentioned was that Luke has not only changed, he’s changed for the worse. But to me, the obvious response here is that movie characters are usually better when they’re flawed. Speaking as an actor, when I’m considering whether or not I want to play a certain character, I’m always looking for a healthy balance of virtues and shortcomings. Otherwise, it doesn’t feel real. No one is a perfect hero or a perfect villain, we’re more complicated than that, every one of us. Flawless characters feel thin. And forgive me if I blaspheme, but the young Luke Skywalker always did feel just a little light to me, which is why it was so cool this time around to see him fill out into a more imperfect human being.

A flawed main character is one of the main distinctions between a story with substance and a gratuitous spectacle. It’s often through a character overcoming their flaws that a movie can really say something. Yes, when the movie begins, Luke has grown cynical. He’s lost faith in what it means to be a Jedi. He’s let fear of the Dark Side of the Force corner him into isolation and inaction. But he needs to start there, so that he can overcome this grave deficit.

To me, this is a story about not losing faith: faith in the outside world, faith in your allies as well as your enemies, in the future as well as the past, in the next generation that will take your place, and yes, faith in your own damn self. Luke has made mistakes that had terrible consequences, and his regret is so strong that he wants to give up. We need to see that despair, hidden under a crusty front of indifference, so that when he finally decides to put himself out there and make the ultimate sacrifice, it means something. It means more than just stalling the First Order to let the remainder of the Resistance escape. Our protagonist has arrived at the end of his journey. He’s re-found his faith, both in the past and the future of the Jedi Order, and even more importantly, in himself. Again, it’s in that glaring contrast between a journey’s beginnings and its end where we find a story’s meaning.

And so, speaking of faith, I’ll end on a bit of a meta note here. It feels to me like a good chunk of the backlash against The Last Jedi is about exactly that. Star Wars has a certain sanctity for a great many of us, and it’s understandable why current circumstances might rattle a fan’s faith. The ultimate authority in this world, its auteur, George Lucas, has recently passed the torch onto the next generation. The new owner of Lucasfilm is a massive media conglomerate. But I think the new Luke Skywalker of Episode VIII gives us good reason to feel reassured.

That a big Hollywood studio would take such risks on such a big property — again, to present their central hero in a drastically different light than ever before, to unflinchingly deliver the ominous message that even the most pure-hearted idealists can struggle through darkness and doubt — these are not the kinds of decisions that get made when short-term profitability is prioritized above all else. These are risks taken in the interest of building a world that is not only good for selling popcorn and action figures this year, but that thrives in the long-run on a bed of literary substance and artistic dignity. As a fan, I take it as a sign of respect that the movie was not only a good time, but a provocative challenge. A lot of studios and filmmakers don’t think so highly of their audiences. In the end, to me, The Last Jedi demonstrates not only that we can still have faith in Star Wars, but that Star Wars still has faith in us.

 

The title in the image links to the article.

 

Cheers guys.

Lovely article I think.


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Yes, it's a great point that for all the concerns of "Di$ney ruining $tar War$", they took a huge risk in what Rian was doing with Luke.

Seems like KK doesn't hesitate to step in if they feel like the writer/director is going somewhere they shouldn't be, so I thought it was noteworthy that they gave the reins to RJ for a brand new trilogy even before TLJ was available to critics.

 

Spot on.

I know RFR is controversial and I share the criticism but they did a commentary recently which I thought was excellent. And this is by two podcasters who I would say are struggling to deal with this ‘woke’ day and age. Nevertheless their commentary was perfect and just makes me love this film more and more.

I’ll see how I feel in a years time, (hopefully!), but right now it’s in the top tier WITH Empire and ANH


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you know what one of my theories from TFA was? When Kylo Ren was "praying" to the Ghost of Darth Vader or whatever in TFA, it was actually Snoke, disguising himself as a ghostly Darth Vader, egging on Ben to be badass like he was.

I don't mind Star Wars casually mentioning things and never getting into them, because it's a big, busy GFFA, but I would have liked a bit more background in TLJ about why Kylo is so focused on becoming like Darth Vader.

Is it not that well-known that Vader was redeemed? Even if not, he would have heard from his parents and his uncle.

I guess the assumption from Snoke in TLJ is that he just saw a way to egg on Ren and maybe that's all it is.

But I was hoping for a surprising ghost appearance from "Darth Vader".

 

You know, this just clicked for me, but I was thinking in TFA, "I wonder if Luke is going to be hanging out with Ghost Ben, Yoda, and Ghost Dad on Ahch-To all the time".

Cutting himself off from the Force is a good way to explain why he's not constantly interrupted by Blue Yoda et al.

Now that he's become One With the Force, are we going to see Ghost Yoda, Ben and Anakin as well as Luke?

Will they be corporeal?

Or is a personal connection needed? In which case, the only Ghost Jedi Rey would be able to see is Luke.

 

What they do with Force ghosts is going to be fascinating. I think the key thing is, Luke has the most reason to commune with Rey and Kylo - but I think there is also a case for Anakin appearing to Kylo, and you could even seen more Force spirits if they get into the whole spirit world thing in a big way. Cutting him from the Force was very smart writing.

 

Something I found interesting in TLJ, and obviously this was was a reference to Han, was Luke's line, "No one is ever really gone". Interesting in that, whilst providing comfort to Leia in that moment, I feel that it could also hint at a more complete picture of the Jedi's view of the afterlife, which so far, we've only touched upon briefly with the Force spirits ( Who are a chosen few, those wise and disciplined enough to learn to ascend, and retain their identity within the Force ) and Yoda's line "Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not", which suggest that all living things return to the Living Force upon their deaths, though seemingly, do not retain a sense of their individual identity in the same way as Yoda, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon learned to do. But they are still there, within the Force.

Then we have the Sith ( I'm lumping Snoke and any other darksiders in here, too ), who crave physical immortality, as becoming one with the Force, and losing one's individual identity, would be anathema to them. Makes sense.

However, we've also been getting, ( from GL's ideas for the Sith Shrine below the the Jedi Temple on coruscant, and Yoda's encounters with the Sith shades on Moraband, to the 'darkside haunted' Sith relics in the Marvel Lando series, to the Acolytes of the Beyond's obsession with the power of Sith relics, and belief in a life beyond death for Vader, and even Kylo communing with Vader's helmet ) a sense that there's something that continues after death for those on the dark side, too. And as they can't retain their identities, but must presumably return to the Force, as all other beings do, where does all of that darkness go? Do they still exist within it on some level? If there is a 'source of the dark side in the Unknown Regions, is this some almighty dark side nexus, a sort of Hell, Tartarus, or Sheol, where the the souls of Sith return to after death? Wherein they exist as shades, something like the Rephaim, shadowy echoes of their former selves?

Thinking about it, where would this leave Anakin? If Sith relics hold some sort of connection to their former owners, does some essence of Vader also still remain somewhere?

 

The potential for Luke’s journey in episode IX as he manage his way through the spirit world is both exciting and opens an opportunity for a ton of folks to come back to the saga: mace windu, qui gon, yaddle...

 

Based on the book "From a Certain Point of View" people lose their sense of self once they become one with the force, however they do not lose awareness. When called upon they can reanimate themselves and essentially relearn who and what they are. So I'm not sure there's really any context for managing one's way through the spirit world.

 

Yeah, that could open the door to a few call backs to past characters, and perhaps not just Jedi...Is Harrison free this summer?

Additionally, and as we've already heard Palpatine's voice in TFA, if they wanted to, they could also explore the darkside aspect of this, which as I posted above, seems like it might be more like an echo of the person, rather than what we see with the Force spirits. So the door might still be open for Ian McDiarmid, Andy Serkis, maybe even James Earl Jones to appear briefly, if this was something they wanted to explore.

 

If Ben didn't know that Vader was his grandfather at all and it was revealed unexpectedly as shown in Bloodlines, I could see an already-influenced-by-Snoke Ben looking to his newly revealed ancestor as being his spirit animal, or whatever, and not particularly believing when he's told Vader was redeemed since Luke and Co. withheld any information on the subject previously.