ST The TLJ constructive catch-all analysis and debate thread

I agree. I get really frustrated when people act like the writers don’t care or haven’t thought this stuff through. It’s really hard to write a script, let alone a good one and let alone one that will come under this much scrutiny. And there are a thousand plates to spin and consider. If most fans were to put their “improvements” in the spotlight they would be absolutely shredded. Most people have no idea.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Absolutely correct. Some can write really great sophisticated stories that fulfill the quality to be a masterpiece and some not.
At the end it is the result that counts. And if something is not good, a lot of people will adress it

 

That’s not quite what I meant. There is always a subjective element in this. While I appreciate some don’t like the film, there is a reason for the critical success, and it’s not a total absence of artistic merit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

For sure not! RJ did an amazing job in directing the scenes. Almost every scene is done perfectly, being an eyecatcher and being far beyond great. Even the ideas he implemented were awesome (Lightspeed Holdo, Porgs, Throne room Kylo killing Snoke, etc. etc....). The problem is the story that connects all of this plus the previous saga does not fit. As I said, if he is wise he gets an experienced co-writer for his trilogy to have a second look at the overall story.

 

He doesn’t need to imo. He’s a very strong writer. I think the issue here is that there is no pleasing every fan, and when someone makes strong story choices not everyone is going to agree with them. That’s not got anything to do with having an experienced co-writer. What I think will happen is - without the legacy expectations - his trilogy won’t have the same baggage to deal with. I think the story absolutely fits, but it clearly does not go the way some people wanted to. But I also believe that would be the case whatever they did. I appreciate some of the paths he went down are hated by some, and that’s totally fair, but that’s not got much to do with his ability and a lot to do with the fact that people look for for very different things from their SW (imo). What is great for one person can be awful for the next.

 

I’m in the process of listening to the latest RFR. As I said before I’m not the biggest fan but I try not to surround myself in an echo chamber in all walks of life.

They’ve got a guy who has studied Campbell. And he’s making a really strong case that the portrayal of Luke in TLJ fits the Campbellian archetype to a tee.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Luke is on the return phase of the hero’s journey in TLJ imo.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Yup.

Personally the thing that some fans are getting het up about, namely the fact he even comprehended killing Ben actually speaks to his greatest strength. That of compassion. It’s his compassion that stops that fleeting moment. Just like it did on the Death Star 2. And it’s his compassion that makes him feel ashamed and that he has failed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Exactly. He didn't go to Ahch-to to hide from the galaxy, he went there to protect the galaxy from any more of his potential failures. From his point of view, everyone was better off without him and his screw ups.

 

This was my main critique as well. He made great film, but it just doesn't seem to fit the rest of the saga. This should be an epic 9 part story, part VIII adds very little to the overall story, and doesn't do much to set up part IX either.

 

I think the characters all learn a lot, and go on quite a journey internally. Re 9, I think Carrie’s sad loss removes one of the main hooks, but if you imagine stopping the saga now, I’d argue there would be clamour to find out what happens next on several fronts. All that’s happened is, we cannot accurately predict which part of the traditional SW cycle we’re now in. It’s like judging each of the previous trilogies after only their act 2. It falls to 9 to thread it all together.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Huh? TLJ does everything so the four main characters are no longer parented by their predecessors/mentors going in to Episode 9.

Luke has passed the torch for being the last Jedi to Rey.

Leia has symbolically passed leadership of the resistance/rebellion to Poe's hands. And with Carrie gone, this will come to pass.

Kylo killed his mentor Snoke and has ascended to Supreme Leader. No more is he bound by him. And all decisions he makes henceforth, can only be attributed to himself.

Finn put the final nail in his stormtrooper past by killing his ex-Leader Phasma, and declaring himself rebelscum.

Now Episode IX will start with these guys no longer metaphorically having to be coddled by the older generation.

Like all coming of age stories, these guys have now come into their own.

Take Yoda's final sentence to heart across the whole movie (not just Jedi).
"This is the burden of all masters. We are, what they grow beyond."

I have some critiques as well, but saying this film doesn't fit with the overall story and doesn't set up IX, is not one of them.

 

Here's a parallel that occurred to me tonight.

In Maz's castle, Rey goes to stop Finn from leaving, under the impression that he's with the Resistance. It turns out he was a stormtrooper and is trying to get as far away from the First Order as he can. He tells Rey to come with him. She tells him not to go. He goes, and in Rey's renewed loneliness, the Force calls to her through the saber.

Aboard the Supremacy, Rey appeals to Ben, under the impression that he'll turn and become an ally of the Resistance. It turns out he's looking to take over the First Order. Rey tells him not to go through with it. He tells her to join him. She keeps her resolve and pulls the saber from his hand. Speaking of which:

I think the outcome in the throne room works as a doubling-down for Rey as well as for Ben, with the saber being symbolic. After offering it to Luke twice, and entrusting it to Ben to finish the fight, she decides to take it back when Ben shows his hand (no pun intended).

 

Yeah. Someone said that Rey comes to learn that she needs to be the one to fight back, because the Skywalker men won’t (at least she thinks Luke won’t - he does later).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Still enjoying reading all the posts across various threads but am running out of steam myself lol!

I still maintain that, while there are things I do not like about TLJ, I think there is a great movie lurking under the surface.

I know people will argue the opposite but I think while RJ is arguably brave (as are LFL and Disney) putting out a film that was clearly going to be devisive, I think dialling down on some of the subversion, reducing or refocusing some of the sub plots, and being a bit more judicious in the use of humour and self aware knowing nods to the audience, and we would have a cracker of a film.

Sure some would still not be happy, especially the #notmyluke gang but the volume of criticism would be far less IMO.

 

I think there is something in that, for sure. But I’d like to have the film on Blu, and the script before trying to decide where you could make those tweaks. I personally think it is a great film - but there are some flaws, which is fine - it’s very hard to know for certain what is going to land and what isn’t until the film is out - but I do think there are a couple of points where a more conservative option might have lessened some of the division. I do think a lot of the backlash has lost the plot and gives absolutely zero credit to what the film does well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Yes now its our nobody heroes vs the bad skywalker. Its gonna be epic .

 

Maybe for a lot of people. And maybe for a lot of other people exactly this is epic uninteresting.

 

Or you could wait to see how 9 shapes up and judge that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Heck, yes! But during the next 2 years there is plenty of time to do drama panic prejudice

 

The thing is we know for certain that Lucas does and so it's easy to trust him that he knows what he is doing (plus he's doing all the movies anyway so it's all going to fit never mind that he created the thing in the first place). We don't know that JJ or RJ do. If anything in the case of JJ it seems that he doesn't because his Trek films as an example things can shift and change the characters around as is needed from scene to scene.

They knew what they were getting into though and let's not pretend that anything we say is going to have THAT much of an effect on them.

Yet many fans do and I think many of them are right here having intelligent conversations. Sure some people get emotionally heated at times but that's OK.

I've said a thousand times I like TLJ but at the same time as of right now without IX to complete the trilogy I have all sorts of questions. Now in terms of galactic scale and world building I think the ST is a lost cause but then I didn't expect they would be any good at it anyway so nothing lost there as far as I am concerned. Would I have been surprised and delighted if they had been better than mediocre to poor? Sure but whatever.

As many people who are more concerned about the plot mechanics have pointed out lots of things don't work very well. The start of the movie is shaky to say the least. For myself again I'm not really concerned about it. Do the bombers really make any actual sense outside of the idea of them? I would say not at all. I noticed this right away as they can barely move, are easily destroyed and it's far too difficult to drop the bombs that really don't make sense as to why they drop. Similar things are all over the movie from the slow speed chase to Canto Bight to each and every battle going on.

So assuming that RJ knew what he was doing then my inclination is that it's all done in the name of subversion and satire of Star Wars. It has to be that or is RJ just an abysmally poor writer of action and no one on the movie pointed any of this out to him? Compare and contrast it to R1 where everything pretty much holds together for the most part. TFA is more basic but it still largely holds (or omits things entirely as to not draw attention to them).

Now why he wants everyone from Leia, Poe, Holdo, Hux etc to look like incompetents much of the time I'm not entirely sure except that again it's subversion and satire. Holdo is an unbelievably poor leader. She and Poe have never met even though they are both in the Resistance of only hundreds of people and both are Leia's "padawans" who have never met.

One hopes then that the KOR will actually be at least akin to Dooku to Grievous then.

Do both I say. I mean it's not like what we say is going to change anything. After it's all over I am hoping that they will look like geniuses or at least like they knew what they were planning and followed through. Of course that they jettisoned the writer-director of IX does dent that a bit.

 

I'll do the dramatic panic with you. There's a reason why we all love the skywalkers. They are the epitome of dramaaa.....

 

Thank you for this!

 

Yeah I agree some people seem to be just ranting and raving for the sake of it now. Not saying people who do not like the film should stop saying it or go away. Heck I have issues with the film. But it would be good if people could have a civilised discussion about their differing points of view without having to get quite so vociferous.

It is especially distasteful the way some have personally attacked RJ as well. Rightly or wrongly he made the film he made. Nobody sets out to make a bad movie. Everyone hopes their movie is great. It is interesting that RJ is saying he stands by all his decisions despite hearing the criticism. Not sure whether that is the mark of a committed artist or an arrogant know all but...hey ho!

Because my perspective is that TLJ has some odd character and plot choices that IMO weaken the film the I think RJ should pay a little head to what is being said (even if it is too late). Not saying pay fan service because that is (arguably) a mistake GL got into. He has to be true to his vision but accept that he still has a duty when making a film that is part of a nine film saga to not subvert quite so much!

But that is my opinion of course

 

I agree with pretty much all of that.

The only context I'd maybe add is that I do think RJ appreciates that - and I also think we get back to the idea that a lot of us think that TLJ is a great addition to a 9 part saga. Someone will always think it doesn't belong - although you know I agree with you that a couple of tweaks could have made a difference for a lot of people as well. Also, I've seen people say they think he arrogantly believes he made a perfect film. I think he thinks he made exactly the film he wanted to make and that now has to stand or fall on its own two feet. He puts it pretty well, I think:

“I’m aware through my own experience that, first of all, the fans are so passionate, they care so deeply — sometimes they care very violently at me on Twitter. But it’s because they care about these things, and it hurts when you’re expecting something specific and you don’t get it from something that you love. It always hurts, so I don’t take it personally if a fan reacts negatively and lashes out on me on Twitter. That’s fine. It’s my job to be there for that. Like you said, every fan has a list of stuff they want a “Star Wars” movie to be and they don’t want a “Star Wars” movie to be. You’re going to find very few fans out there whose lists line up.
And I also know the same way the original movies were personal for Lucas. Lucas never made a “Star Wars” movie by sitting down and thinking, “What do the fans want to see?” And I knew if I wrote wondering what the fans would want, as tempting as that is, it wouldn’t work, because people would still be shouting at me, “F— you, you ruined ‘Star Wars,’” and I would make a bad movie. And ultimately, that’s the one thing nobody wants.”