ST The TLJ constructive catch-all analysis and debate thread

How does Anakin learn how to become a Force Ghost? It's a power that took Yoda and Obi Wan decades to learn apparently, and yet Anakin figures it out with no training at all within hours...

Perhaps we fans shouldn't look at these films as if they're documentaries, but rather just the fun adventure stories they're supposed to be.

 

Not in TLJ she doesn't.

Nice idea. I wish RJ had thought of that angle.

Odd way to show it after he sees her with Ren and her propensity for the Dark side.

That was never about Rey. I wish it was.

Yes. Yoda. R2, Leia, Ren, Han and anyone else but Rey.

It's like RJ thought that we thought that Rey was going to be important to Luke and help him out so instead of doing that he subverted it because he loves to swerve everything so much but makes everything into circles.

Yoda and Obi-Wan save Anakin.

 

Where does it say it took Yoda and Obi Wan decades to learn how to become force ghosts? They talk about it one time at the end of ROTS and that's it. Yoda doesn't even give a time frame for how long it took Qui Gon to figure out this neat little trick.

Who knows what Old Ben was doing all those years on Tatooine babysitting Luke but I doubt he was only concerned with learning how to be a force ghost for 19 years. Both Obi Wan and Yoda are alive in ANH. Obi Wan dies in ANH and is a force ghost the very next time we see him what, some three years later? Yoda dies in ESB. Shows up as a force ghost three years later in ROTJ. They could have learned it in three years or less based on when the first ghost form of each appears.

 

I think it’s disingenous to imply Rey played no part in his return even passively. Again, I’ve said this before but it’s very much like the Dark Knight Rises where John Blake starts the call to action, Selina continues it, and Alfred is basically the Yoda. Eventually Batman returns and similar to passing the baton to John Blake in the end Luke does so to Rey.

She’s the one who stays at it with him and updates him on what’s happening. It’s through his sessions with her that he ultimately reconnects to the Force and without him reconnecting to the Force there’s no Yoda. Even seeing Ben Solo try to corrupt her as he had his other students drives the action forward toward Yoda. He’d seen that she was one of the best students he’d ever had first hand so when Yoda tells him “Lose Rey we must not” he knows he’s right. She clearly had an impact on him and he literally becomes the thing he joked that he thought she would want (Staring down the FO with a laser sword). She also revisits his first lesson with him to lift the stones. It all comes back to their initial encounters in the end and that’s why I’m optimistic, as are others, that they will now have a better relationship heading into IX via Force Ghost.

 

Huh?

So you can make logical inferences for the OT but not for TLJ?

 

Oops, dies in ROTJ. Which means he had less than a year to get the fg trick down.

 

They study to do it during life.

 

Share a source please. If it was an EU novel I didn't mess with those.

 

It's in TCW.

It's why they disappear.

 

Haven't gotten to that episode. But in ROTS Yoda makes it sound like it wasn't something they knew until Qui Gon figures it out after his own death.

 

It's still not logical neiter way

It should be obvious that they learnt it before death.

 

Supposedly Vader learned it from Sidious BUT still required some additional lesson from Yoda and Obi Wan after death before he was able to do it.

 

He didn't learn it from Sidious.

 

I said supposedly. If you are going to refute can you not elaborate?

 

Sith can't learn the ability. This is why there are no Sith Ghosts.

'Supposedly' suggests you have evidence.

 

No supposedly could also mean I read something elsewhere. Supposedly is also not an absolute. But since it took forever to get a straight answer I looked it up. Obi Wan and Yoda assisted/taught him after he turned back.

Lucas said on the Return of the Jedi DVD commentary:

"This little scene where he burns his father's body, it wasn't originally in the script. But I decided it gave more closure in terms of Luke's relationship to his father, letting go of his father. Even though later on, as we get to the end of the movie, as he joins the Force, he was able to retain his original identity, it's because of Obi-Wan and Yoda, who learned how to do that: how to join the Force at will and then retain your identity. But it was his identity as he was when he died as Anakin Skywalker."

Also leads me to understand it didn't take decades to learn. Especially if Anakin learned it between time of death and time of appearance to Luke.

 

Yes I know. I'm pointing out how much of a double standard it is that people allow after the fact explanation for stuff like that, but for TLJ it had to be on screen or it's an absolute plot hole and no explanation will be accepted.

My point stands though. Obi-Wan and Yoda learnt it before they died, which is why they disappeared.

 

Yup. Thinking about the movie and putting two and two together is not always a bad thing. This applies to most movies and stories as well.

 

Especially when people accept those after the fact explanations that never played out on screen, like his identity when he "died" being young Anakin just so George can have an excuse to shoehorn Hayden into ROTJ.

 

This morning I'm seriously contemplating the handling of Luke Skwyalker.

And wondering if this deconstructed version is the most interesting, layered take on the character we've ever seen?

 

I've been contemplating the same thing, but in respect to something different.

Whether intentional or not, I feel the way Luke is portrayed in this manner allows for something that I always wished could be; that is, the combining of Canon material and Legends material into one true canon. Allow me to explain;

After ROTJ, Luke Skywalker, legendary hero of the Rebellion that blew up a Death Star and the universally-known powerful Jedi Knight that defeated Vader and Palpatine to bring down the Empire and restore peace to the galaxy, spent a lot of time travelling the galaxy to search the galaxy for Jedi teachings and the like. In that time, he also established a Jedi Academy in a secret location. So with all of this and given the fact that he went into seclusion following the events with Ben Solo, no one has seen Luke for a very long time. People like Rey only know him as this mysterious legend and even his best mate in Han Solo has/had know idea what happened to him following Ben's turning to the dark. And there is even a recent Disney-era novel titled something like "The Legends of Luke Skywalker"; where Luke simply "passes through" peoples lives as he continues on his journeys in what he is searching fall.

So with all of these people that experience a "brief moment" in the life of Luke Skywalker, everyone would have a Luke Skywalker "story" to tell. When they have a time to recount their story, each respective person would be saying things like "Hey, I was collecting some samples on this strange planet and the next thing, Luke Skywalker appears along side of me". Or, "Yeah, there was this one time my mates and I were in a spot of bother with some low-life criminals. Next thing, Luke Skywalker charges in with his laser sword and saves our skins". Over time, these stories filter through the galaxy and the legend continues to grow.

But over time as the stories become 8th or 9th hand recounts, embellishments and vague details creep in and these aspects become a greater part of the story recount. The stories become grandeur in detail and the feats that were achieved. And because the rest of the galaxy (through the eyes of those that served in the Rebellion) know of the extended cast surrounding Luke in the forms of Leia, Han, Chewbacca, etc, they too are pulled into the "stories" because of association. Additionally, common names that are used between the ST era and the Legends part (ie. Ben Solo - Ben Skywalker) creep into the "vague details" aspects of the story recounts.

And how this works with combining the ST canon and the Legends material, the Legends material is simply these "embellished and vague grandeur stories" that have filtered through the galaxy over time. It doesn't matter that the details aren't correct, because this is what happens with 8th or 9th recount of stories from people who know of people, who knew people that knew people that were there the day that Luke Skywalker passed through their lives. And the fact that Lucasfilm have been smart and clever enough to loosely follow the EU (Legends) and even draws from some of the characters (Thrawn, Princess Leia having a son that turned bad) and makes them Canon, it only serves to reinforce and strengthen the validity of these story recounts - again, regardless if they are true or not.

And now bring all of this thought to Luke when he finally makes an appearance in front of people again. He hands Leia Han's Dice (which feel real and only disappear in the hands of Kylo Ren once all of the others have gone. Only Kylo knows this, the same person who was shocked when he plunged his lightsaber through Luke, but nothing happened and he realised it was a "Force Projection") and kisses Leia and for everyone in that room, Luke Skywalker was real to them. Now, the Legends material build Luke up to being this powerful Jedi Master; perhaps the greatest of all time. So when Luke Skywalker steps outside to face down the entire First Order himself and in front of a captive audience, when the First Order unleashes hell on Luke and he stands there afterwards and simply brushes it off his shoulder, how much does that reinforce his Legendary status from the Legends material. So when people are discussing Luke years after that event over a drink, how much greater will be the story recounts (regardless if true or not) and how much will this reinforce his achievements in the Legends material; again, regardless if true or not.

Because no one saw Luke vanish. Everyone in that hangar after Poe's instruction used Luke's "cover" to flee to safety. The only image they have in their heads is Luke Skywalker standing tall against seemingly impossible odds.

Whether intentional or not, the use and portrayal of Luke in TLJ serves to create the opportunity to combine all material into one true canon. To justify the contradictions in past Legends stories, Kathleen Kennedy (I think it was her) said these stories are told from a certain point of view (funny, that's a pretty big term being used in Star Wars lately); a bit like the old wild west in the US where a lot of the key players "past through" people's lives and they have a story to recount. And there perspective of events maybe different to another's who may have been there too; particularly if a person embellished events.

For me, I can use the events and the portrayal of Luke in TLJ to now say there is one true canon. And I feel comfortable and right in thinking this. So thankyou RJ, thankyou Pablo, KK and the Lucasfilm storygroup and thankyou DISNEY; regardless if you meant to achieve this or not.

 

I think TLJ really takes down the idea of hero worship, or more specifically the 'superman' idea (that there will be a hero to save us from the worlds ills) and how such concepts only create complacency. Firstly it asks the question, what do they really want Luke to accomplish by coming back? He can't face down the First Order and actually survive for very long. He, like in the OT, would be a small - but important - cog in a very big machine. Rather they want him to accomplish feats that only exist in legend, and they are putting all their hope on this singular individual. Through Rey we see that everyone needs to accept that it's in themselves where the victory will be won, not from someone who will save the day in one grand action - those people don't exist and it's folly to think they do. The true value of heroes is not that they will save the day by destroying armies and entire fleets, it's what they inspire in others. The great heroes of our world didn't continue solving problems for all eternity - their accomplishments inspiring people is what actually changes the world. I'm reminded Robert Kennedy's Ripple of Hope speech:

"It is from numberless diverse acts of courage and belief that human history is shaped each time a man stands up for an ideal or acts to improve the lot of others or strikes out against injustice. He sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring, those ripples build a current that can sweep down the mightiest wall of oppression and resistance."

 

Absolutely spot on. Excellent. One of my favorite lessons that the film conveys.

 

That is the message of the movie though. Chewie, R2, Leia, Yoda, even Han but not Rey. Rey is an objective for Luke as a figure not a person.

Oddly the cut 3rd lesson seems to show Rey actually having an actual effect on Luke from herself:

Rey is mad that Luke lied to her and she confronts him. He admits that he’s sorry, but that she ran so fast and he couldn’t stop her. Rey says that she thought they were in danger and tried to do something. Luke responds, seriously this time, that that’s exactly what the resistance needs – not some old husk of a failed religion. He was again trying to teach her a lesson. Rey cries, explaining that her real friends are really dying and “that old legend of Luke Skywalker that you hate so much, I believed in it.” Luke is in shock. He realizes that he pushed her too far. Rey tells him she was wrong about believing in him and storms away.

Because of R2 not Rey. In the library she pleads to him and it does nothing to get him to even tell her why he won't do anything.

Sorry but Rey never was one of Luke's students. Even if she was she'd be very poor as the 3rd lesson shows plus she goes straight to the dark and doesn't mention the Force conversations with Ren.

I don't see any impact outside of her simply being a ready made Jedi already who has appeared when they need her. There were so many ways to have Rey impact on Luke and none of them happened. The biggest one there actually was there was fear at training her so only negative impact.

Well it could hardly be worse! Once again Luke is made to look wrong as it's not about lifting rocks turns out to be incorrect.

Rey could have been made to impact Luke because of who she is as a person and not just because of her being a Jedi.

 

After reading most of TLJ novel and when used in conjunction with the film, among the many themes this brilliant and layered movie explores, a couple of themes are beginning to merge for my interpretation – and that is of rejection and abandonment in a family situation and the choices one makes in dealing with these emotionally negative issues. I think this plays out in 3 of the main characters (Rey, Kylo and Finn) in totally different ways.

In the characterization of Rey, unless JJ pulls a mystery box on everyone and changes what is now known, her parents are “filthy junk traders who sold her for drinking money”. Deep down Rey obviously knows this (again, unless JJ changes this or there has been a misdirection), but sticks her head in the sand and does not want to accept it. Everyday in her fallen AT AT walker home on Jakku, Rey marks off yet another day since her family have left her and desperately yearns to be reunited with them. Given her current (again, JJ may change this) circumstances, Rey experiences much pain in her feelings of rejection and abandonment, but probably not the full extent of those feelings in refusing to accept the truth and because she holds onto a false hope.

Now Rey comes from absolutely nothing and in her situation of rejection and abandonment by her family, many would not blame her if she was bitter and nasty at the cards she has been dealt and be a bad person because of it. But this is not Rey. Even in her most desperate hour, Rey always shows a strong moral fibre in her being and does good by people. Rey always strives for progression towards the light of the Force. She does not let these feelings of rejection and abandonment stop her from being a good person. Rey chooses to be a good person despite what she has been through.


The contrast here is Ben Solo / Kylo Ren. He comes from it all. He is the grandson of the Chosen One. His mother, father and uncle are galactic heroes and saviours of the galaxy from the Empire and he begins the early years of his life in a safe and happy household. But there is a problem.

His mother has never accepted the fact that she is the biological daughter of one of the men who terrorized the galaxy over a long time. She has a hard time dealing with this and consequently does not tell anyone about it – not even her son. And through a limited understanding of the Force and knowing that Ben Solo has the equal potential for a light and dark path, Leia constantly worries about her son and any little shows of “dark side” emotions only heighten those worries.

The problem further compounds with Leia discussing this in private with Han and not realizing Ben can hear them. Not knowing the context with himself and his ancestral history, Ben misinterprets his parents’ thoughts as him being “some kind of monster”. This begins a negative cycle with Ben. The rejection he feels causes him to withdraw, causes self confidence issues and makes him display even more “dark emotions”; further enhancing the cycle through his parents’ ever-increasing worry. Eventually his parents can’t take anymore and the two people who are supposed to unconditionally love him the most, send him off to his uncle to be straightened out. But when he is there training and learning with his uncle, his uncle has a moment of weakness because of a unclear vision he sees and Ben awakes to find his uncle standing over him with an ignited lightsabre. Not knowing his uncle’s true intentions at the precise moment he wakes and fearing for his life, Ben reacts to defend himself against a potential threat.

With Snoke’s manipulations and influences guiding his thoughts and due to his overwhelming sense of rejection and abandonment by his parents and his uncle, Ben chooses to become the monster he thinks everyone thinks him to be. Even in the moments such as Rey offering out her hand to pull him back to the light, or when his father attempts to “get” his son back, Ben/Kylo chooses the “dark” path. Rejection and abandonment have made him bad, have made him evil and there is no turning back. He continues to tread down towards the dark side of the Force.


And then there is Finn. He is Rey’s outcome with a difference. Finn doesn’t know his parents because he was taken by The First Order when he was very young. He didn’t know them, consequently he doesn’t miss them or yearn for them. The First Order (his fellow stormtroopers) are his family. So when the day of reckoning comes and he has to slaughter defenceless and innocent villagers at the command of “parents” (in Kylo Ren and Captain Phasma), he can’t do it because Finn too has a strong moral fibre to his being and a want to only do good things by people.

So instead of Finn feeling a sense of rejection and abandonment, he is the one doing the rejecting and the abandoning because “his family” are evil people doing really bad things to others. And this is not who Finn is at heart. He’s not like them, so he chooses not to be with them. Finn chooses to be on the good side of things, just like Rey. Admittedly though, Finn’s characterisation here can mainly be attributed to JJ rather than RJ.


For me, all of this is brilliant story telling and great characterisation. RJ is taking two of the many themes in TLJ and is giving the audience polar opposites in two/three of the main characters in how a person chooses to deal with emotions such as rejection and abandonment. A person can come from nothing and still have a good heart in the face of adversary and difficult circumstances. Others can have everything and come from everything, but still end up down a dark path if circumstances of their home environment are not ideal. Very good and layered story telling.