ST The TLJ constructive catch-all analysis and debate thread

The force isn't manipulating Rey or controlling her decisions, I thought that was obvious? The cosmic force does things like set into motion events that will lead her to meeting people like Han Solo and will say, influence a blaster bolt to hit her enemy in just the right place to allow her to beat him, but it never controls her actions or makes decisions for her.

That's how I always assumed the will of the force was implemented anyway. I never thought it actually controlled people

 

"You mean it controls your actions?"

"Partially, but it also obeys your commands."

 

I Think the word 'partially' is key there. Almost like it opens a door for you. but it's your choice whether you go through it or not. It was people saying that the force has been controlling Rey's decisions that I took issue with, I think she's made every decision on her own terms and every fight she's won or lost has been from her own actions as well. I think the force has been guiding her but that's it. It wasn't the force that told her to turn down Ren's offer nor was the force controlling her actions when she beat him in a duel, It was all her, the force was just her ally.

 

Absolutely. The Force can make a droid's motivator go pop at just the right time. It can also seemingly contribute to certain actions you may take ("Feel, don't think. Act on instinct" or whatever it was Qui-Gon said to Anakin), but I don't think that extends as far as the Force taking over your rational decision making.

The noodle baking extension to this line of thought, that the Force guided Rey into the conflict, is that the Force led BB8 to Rey so therefore the Force set in motion a flow of events that killed Lor San Tekka and an entire village. If the First Order doesn't show up then Poe flies to D'Qar, gives the map to Leia and she goes to give Luke a kick up the arse whilst Poe destroys Starkiller Base.

 

It's a fun line of thought. What if the Hutt that originally owned Anakin and his mother hadn't lost them betting on pod races?. in terms of film canon that's the first event I can think of that set these events in motion. It's like one big butterfly effect. That's a reason why I also take issue with people who call Star Wars popcorn flicks, they're so much deeper than that!

 

Not at all. They do. They chose to go on the Jedi path.

What offer? Kylo's offer of I'll kill everyone you know so join me and I'll still kill them offer?

Very tempting.

That's of no comparison to TESB. Anakin knows his choice was wrong and not that of a Jedi.

Because nothing Luke does has anything to do with saving Rey. So what is he talking about?

What Jedi? Rey is no Jedi that anyone has ever seen before. A Jedi who needs no one and doesn't have any training?

The only way Rey could be "lost" is to be killed and Luke does nothing that helps Rey.

No. The double standard is that Rey is not the same standard as any other Jedi ever because they all had to actually takes years to train and develop. No one before has been an instant Jedi. She is already a Jedi before she meets Luke and why she is would hopefully be answered in IX.

She has no choice as far as we can tell. She is driven to be a Jedi and deliberately wants to do the Jedi thing that Luke did decades previousy and with no real reason at all to do so besides some extremely vague idea of a vision of which she is compelled to do. She wants Luke to do this but when he doesn't then she feels compelled to do so even though it makes no sense to as there is nothing to show Ren is anything but evil.

No as she is not believed to be the Chosen One as Obi-Wan thought. She is just a powerful Force user who for all Luke sees is drawn to the Dark side over and again. How is he to know she is a Jedi already? It doesn't follow that he would but afterwards gets clued in somehow by Yoda but then there is no follow up.

Why would he listen to someone who is a deceitful liar who consorts with Kylo Ren in secret? The character point that at least works with Luke is why trust Rey after Ren? Rey's actual fault (that is basically pushed aside) is her arrogance and pride of her visions which are based on nothing. Maybe her own glorification if we go by this supposed want or need to be somebody in a story (which would be an excellent reason and give her some real character flaws to work with to overcome). Instead it's vague-ish and passed over.

Again the Force seems to be guiding her actions to do what seems idiotic in the extreme based on her actual experiences of the murderous killer who she doesn't know at all. Why in all sanity would she go? Because the Force gave her a vision of Ren standing with her. Yet she's not Anakin who had years of experience of Force visions coming true from becoming a Jedi to his mother's death to finally Padme where he had every reason to believe it as fact. With Rey it's open Force powers for a few dozen hours and she's jumping to what she sees. The Force guided her actions against Ren in the forest in TFA and again taking her to him in TLJ.

Now if they painted as above where she is so overwhelmed by her own righteous power and makes bad decisions because of it I'd totally buy that and it'd give her a great arc to work from like Anakin and Luke. Instead she seems like a pawn that no one else is interested in. Snoke has no interest in her at all. Why? It's beyond strange that he simply wants to use and kill her when she is clearly way more powerful than Ren.

It'd be like Sidious fine with Dooku over Anakin or Vader over Luke and not be bothered.

 

That wasn't the Force, but the droid itself - who'd been convinced by Artoo's story about the desperate need to get to the Rebellion, to fake a malfunction, that would look like its motivator had blown. (From A Certain Point of View short story compilation).

 

A surprisingly emotional story to read.

 

If the 'Resistance' can go from finding and destroying the First Order's Death Star on Saturday, to not even being able to defend their position on Sunday, they've shot their load too early and are nothing for the First Order to be concerned about.

Following the destruction of Death Star 3, the 'Resistance' take longer to evacuate their base than it takes for the First Order to get over the shock of DS3's destruction, regroup, track the Resistance, design a battle plan, assemble a fleet, travel to D'Qar and attack the Resistance.

Rian Johnson basically wanted to re-tell the opening to The Empire Strikes Back, but forgot that the Resistance are up against an Imperial remnant, not a reigning Galactic Empire. The Empire, with all its galactic might and resources took months to find the Rebels on Hoth. It took the First Order, who were barely relevant to the Republic a few days ago hours to find and attack a group loyal to the Galactic Republic.

The First Order want to re-establish the Empire. By miraculously destroying the entire Republic fleet in TFA, 'reigning' at the start of TLJ, and the Resistance being so weak as to not even be able to defend their own base, it doesn't make sense why this war is ongoing. The First Order appear to be all mighty - why don't they just get on with re-establishing the Empire, and leave the Resistance to a Star Destroyer battlegroup?

 

It's not an Imperial remnant though and the Resistance aren't the Alliance.

The context is different. Snoke wants the threat he deems biggest to him - Luke Skywalker and the Resistance wiped out.

What's difficult about that?

 

There's nothing difficult about it, it's just pointless.

The First Order are ridiculously powerful compared to the Reblistance. It's a no-contest in a way the Empire v Rebels never was. It's like the First Order are getting really worked up about swatting a fly. That it has all happened over the space of days renders it very shallow.