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The transition doesn't work.

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by SpawnofSidious, May 21, 2005.

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  1. SpawnofSidious

    SpawnofSidious Jedi Master star 4

    Aug 19, 2003
    AFter watching Ep.III I felt the strong need to watch ANH. Just the thought of how things would seemlessly fit together and the feeling of seeing luke and leia grow up after seeing them as babies. But how disappointed I was. The music didn't fit the PT at all the playfulness of it being a childrens movie ruined the transition. The PTs were so serious, elegant, and deep musicwise, while the OT is just music with no real dpeth other thanwhat you hear. Also quality of the film reel seemed off compared to the PT. The PT had color filtered into it not just the film by itself with no extra coloration for the quality of the film. And the action seemed utterly weak compared to the PT. All this made me want GL to redo the enitire OT. It was in that instant all of a sudden that I realized I liked the PT a boatload more. Besides the fact of suddenly falling in love with the PT. Did anyone else feel these components and differences weakened the transition.
  2. VtotheAtotheDER

    VtotheAtotheDER Jedi Youngling

    May 20, 2005
    Did seem to bother me at all really. I still love the OT better
  3. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Nov 28, 2000
    Not particularly. The OT is timeless and the PT is gratuitous. It's two different stylistic designs.

    Consider we have the vibrant yet shadow age of heroes and the Republic compared to the uniform and centralized world of the Empire. Think about the differing thematic elements.
  4. SpawnofSidious

    SpawnofSidious Jedi Master star 4

    Aug 19, 2003
    It's not the stylistic design of the two generations. I just think that they should of had moe continuity, The feel for the movies was completely different.
  5. BobaFrank

    BobaFrank Jedi Youngling star 5

    Jul 17, 2001
    "while the OT is just music with no real dpeth other thanwhat you hear"

    [You probably need to listen to the OT music again. It has depth, emotion, power, and deep symbolism.

    Underestimate and dismiss the OT you should not. Still the greatest trilogy of movies ever made. Definately the most influencial in film history on a cinematic and technical front.]

  6. SpawnofSidious

    SpawnofSidious Jedi Master star 4

    Aug 19, 2003
    The OT music has depth in the music from a musical standpoint, but as far as underlying the emotion in the movie it doesn't do it for me. When it's an evil scene it's only evil with less emotion. But in the PT it has evil but it underlies the emotional tension of the moment. Take for instance order 66 and the purge of the jedi. It's evil and tragic and the musci is emotional and it underlies all the emotion leading up to that moment.
  7. zombie

    zombie Jedi Master star 4

    Aug 4, 1999
    You know i just watched ANH tonight for the first time since seeing ROTS, and i was struck by a similar thought. ESB and ROTJ fit in with the PT nicely but ANH has a lot of stylistic inconsistencies--it really feels like it belongs to a different series. It doesn't make it bad or anything, but it is a bit distracting, especially for future viewers. The pace is much slower and it seems events which should have huge gravity to them are simply skimmed over or go limp--Alderaan's destruction, Vader and Obi Wan's reunion, Luke first force training. Other things feel like they should be mentioned or explored but arent--the emperor and coruscant are absent, and Vader seems a bit out of character; as well, Leia's heritage is confusingly vague and Luke seems to have a crush on her.

    Some things work well though. The Tantive IV battle holds up well (though the imperial march is sorely absent) and Obi Wan first encounter with Luke and subsequent scene in his hovel work better than ever--though i wish a few more reactions/pauses were given when delving into the more tragic histories. Mos Eisley seems better than ever too.

    I think where the film faulters--saga wise--is in its pace and emphasis. 3P0 and R2D2 wander Tatooine for a long time; in 1977 this was a magical first introduction to a mysterious new world--imagine a film which followed robots on a desert planet for ten minutes, brilliant. Now however, Tatooine, jawas, the droids and everything else is nothing new, and the sequence seems a bit out of place--the editing in this seems to drag as well. Fortunately once Luke is introduced the film picks up into high gear, and the Tatooine scene with Luke are by far the best in the film. We are introduced to Anakin's son, explore the history of the Republic and learn how characters and events have changed since we left them in ROTS. Once they get to the death star however, the movie takes on a light comedic tone. As fun as it is, in the larger picture of the saga, this whole section seems a little awkward in some parts, when the meeting of Luke and Obi Wan to the heart of the Empire should be treated with a bit more significance. Ben travels the death star by himself, while Han, Luke and Leia run through various corridors and have various slightly comedic escapades before finally deciding to leave. They battle off some pesky TIE fighters and then the rebels blow up the death star.

    The second half of the film, which i used to find the most exciting, now seems the most unrelated and boring. The Tatooine scenes anchor the film, and this is where all the interesting character moments come into play. The plot moves along and is always interesting. We see the similarities between Luke and Anakin. We see how Owen and Beru have raised him with the shadow of Vader ominously looming. We meet Obi Wan, still living in the desert and now grey-haired, and then Luke is introduced into the force. All the PT ties fall into place here--the clone wars, anakin, the republic and the jedi are all referenced and a real understanding of the loss of the old ways is felt. Then Beru and Owen are killed and Luke and Ben race to find passage to Alderaan to help Bail Organa fight the Empire before they are captured, while Luke agrees to become a jedi like Anakin. Great stuff. Really, the only plot points which are truely relevant to the saga occur in the first half. The beginning of the film is a nice bridge from the PT, but as soon as they get to the death star the film becomes more and more off-target. I never expected this to occur; interesting...
  8. ObiWanZ3

    ObiWanZ3 Jedi Youngling

    Apr 2, 2004
    Thank you :) I couldn't have said it better. I like ANH a lot, but the pace is different i think because Lucas also wanted it to stand alone much better initially (i think).

    MAybe it'll just take time to get used to.
  9. SpawnofSidious

    SpawnofSidious Jedi Master star 4

    Aug 19, 2003
    I agree. Maybe it was just ANH. Since I haven't had time to watch ESB and ROTJ since Thursday.
  10. Winston_Sith

    Winston_Sith Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Apr 8, 2004
    The transition totally works.

    Among other greta things, the helmets the pilots on all sides of the conflict in all of the "OT" (and that's the last time I'll ever refer to it as 'the "OT"', btw) are the exact same kind of helmets the Clone Pilots wore in ROTS. Brilliant!

    And I am so fascinated by the whole whole new view of R2-D2, in the context of the larger Saga, that ROTS has given me, that it's like an entirely different movie to me (in a good way).

    And, of course:

    "I sense something. A presence I have not felt, since..."

    Forget about it!

    Now I know when "since..." was.

    It rules!
  11. Yvan

    Yvan Jedi Youngling

    May 15, 2005
    I haven't seen Sith yet (I'll see it later today!) but even having seen the trailers, I think I can add a comment. I think it would've been hard for Lucas to make a smoother transition from Sith to A New Hope because New Hope was made, what, nearly 30 years ago...a different time, a different era. I was watching the Charlie Rose interview with Lucas, who said that, when he was making New Hope, while he had other chapters in mind, it all depended on whether that first one succeeded, so in one sense I think he made that one to stand alone. It DOES have a different feel, even from, say, Empire Strikes Back, but even then you've got a different director. But just the timeline in terms of production counts for so much...New Hope seems very much like a 70s movie; Empire seems like a 1980 movie; Sith seems very much like it would be a 2005 movie. He also had a lot more money to play with in making Sith as opposed to New Hope.

    As for the music, I think the New Hope soundtrack is and always will be a classic and fit that movie very well.
  12. Qui-Gon_Gin-n-Juice

    Qui-Gon_Gin-n-Juice Jedi Youngling

    May 21, 2005
    I watched ROTS and then came home and watched ANH and ESB because my wife was more curious about the whole saga. I really think that Lucas blew it. I am a fan and have been for a long time but I think that episodes I-III are much weaker than episodes IV & V and they (PT episodes) make many of the strong characters from the OT look much weaker.

    For example, Vader is very weak IMO after his emotional breakdown crying about Padme. Vader was ruthless in the OT - he is basically crying in the NT. I wondered why Obi Wan and Yoda waited so long to train Luke or Leia. They let the whole galaxy live under an oppressive government while they hid. Neither of them showed the loyalty to the cause that Luke did. Luke wasn't even fully trained and he rushed to face Vader. Yoda and Obi Wan are masters and they are hiding?

    Also, the kissing between Luke and Leia is now very disgusting. My wife had a major gross out moment and started shouting, "That's your sister, that's your sister-yuck!" It is very different now.

    Yoda now appears to have gone nuts living in isolation . That whole scene in ESB when he is introduced (or now reintroduced) is awkward.

    The PT in general is too fast paced and I have had a problem with that all along. The scale is too large and I knew it would not match up with the OT. I don't think that ROTS redeemed the series and it is obvious that they are disconnected and Lucas did not put enough thought into how they would fit together. There are gaps and holes all the way through and Lucas has progressively made the whole series worse.

    I think that the real genius behind Star Wars was Irvin Kershner. He disappered after ESB and so did much of the quality.

    Maybe, sometime in the future, maybe when Lucas is dead, someone will come in and remake the whole series and do it right.
  13. Plo_Koen

    Plo_Koen Jedi Padawan star 4

    May 23, 2001
    I think the transition works great visually, with the blockade runner and the homestead sets. I didn't miss the big FX in ANH because the story doesn't need it at that point.
  14. rajarshinag

    rajarshinag Jedi Youngling star 1

    Sep 24, 2003
    other than ANH being old, i think the focus really become stighter, and not intergalactic as in ROTS, but thats not a bad thing, the focus in TPM was also somewhat smaller compared to AOTC,

    for me the transition was not only smoother, but lots of stuff made new sense, it gave new life to the old movies and new ones too, i am ofcourse talking bout ROTS, this one movie connects it so well that i feel pity for vader now,

    one thing does bother me though, the obi wan and vader fight really seem weak and the scene shoudl have been more emphacised
  15. DarthMyBoy

    DarthMyBoy Jedi Youngling star 1

    Nov 29, 2003
    The PT is darker, therefore the music was more intense. The OT is about coming out of the dark times, thus the music is softer, and more suttle
  16. _Darth_Brooks_

    _Darth_Brooks_ Jedi Padawan star 4

    Sep 27, 2000
    They just don't work together. I don't know why it didn't hit me so hard before ROTS, but the movies will never be in sync and always 2 different, if alternate, universes far, far away.

    Like someone else above,...and I can't believe I'm saying this, as much as I adore the OT,...the entire series, or at least the OT needs to be entirely remade.

    The filmography, the pace, entirely too different. Too disjointed.

    Perhaps Lucas waited too long to make the PT.

    The flow isn't there, and following Ewan with Alec(I know Alex came first) just doesn't work. Cgi Yoda followed by floppy rubber Yoda doesn't work. Hate to admit it, but PT Yoda is superior to OT Yoda.

    Visually the PT is far superior, and going into the OT after the PT is taking a huge step backwards which interferes with the ability to immerse oneself in the films. The PT is on such a bigger scale, and the story itself doesn't take this into consideration with any sort of compelling exposition.

    As much as I've been resistant in the past to Lucas tampering with the OT,...well, in reconsideration, I think there's a need for substantially more tampering and updating.

  17. WLDB

    WLDB Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jan 11, 2004
    I think the Imperial March should be in ANH. I think it should replace the bad guy music. That stuff thats playing when we first see the DS.
  18. Winston_Sith

    Winston_Sith Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Apr 8, 2004
    I know how some of you feel.

    After I saw ROTS, I had the thought "Lucas is going to have to remake the IV-VI..."

    But when I watched ANH, I was amazed at how it all fits together. I was so engrossed with the improvement, that after watching it I asked myself, "Greedo shoots first, huh? Well, who the **** cares anymore?!?!?! Hahahahahahahahahahaha!"

    The revamped SE FX were a great benefit - I cringe to image what my impresion of the movies would have been if, after seeing ROTS, the first thing Idid when I got home was to pop the vaunted "O-OT" vervion of "Star Wars" into my VCR, and press "Play".

    Now, *THAT* would have been quite a shock. lol

    I agree, TESB and ROTJ fit the Saga better than ANH; but I had that feeling even *before* I saw ROTS.

    I don't remember if I mentioned this before, but some people thought the fixed version of the Emperor's hologram in TESB just "didn't look right". Something about how the hood didn't look right, or the makeup looked like crap, or... something. Well, ROTS definitely fixed whatever problem even I, without the benefit of having seen ROTS, may have had with it. lol
    It looks fine now.

    Remake the second half of the Saga?

    I don't know... I don't think you ingrateful little Fanboys would like how *that* turned out, either.

    There is absolutely NO pleasing you.

    So sad...

    You're all in post-ROTS shock.

    It's just that ROTS is the best Star Wars Movie. Period.

    Once you let that settle in, you'll feel a lot better.

    Just wait awhile for your emotions to subside a bit, so you can think rationally.

    Everythings gonna be Okeeday! <Palpatine grin>
  19. echo_seven

    echo_seven Jedi Youngling star 1

    May 22, 2005
    I wanted to weigh in since the topic of the filmscore was brought up. I am a filmscore composer so I know what I am talking about.

    I must admit that ROTS had a completely different theme than ANY of the other star wars movies. In fact, it was a completely different musical style and I was very surprised at Williams musical interpretation. I will have to see it again so I can pay a little more attention to the music score, but I do remember the music to be more dark and tragic than I have ever heard from Williams.

    I might add while on the subject that Williams should get at least half the credit for the sucess of SW.
  20. WLDB

    WLDB Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jan 11, 2004
    Agreed. Without the music, Star Wars would not be Star Wars. It would be....weird.
  21. Le1gh

    Le1gh Jedi Youngling

    May 23, 2005
    I agree about the 2 trilogies not being seamless but, i think if anything, the new ones are the ones that should be redone. All style and no substance.
  22. Solo_So_Low

    Solo_So_Low Jedi Youngling star 1

    May 22, 2005
    is it so hard for you to remember that the OT was made almost 30years ago!!? i mean for goodness sake of course its going to be different from the modern trilogy! is the PT was made in the same style as the OT then it wouldnt work.
  23. EruIluvatar

    EruIluvatar Jedi Youngling

    Oct 5, 2002
    I think the argument that "OT was made thirty years ago" doesn't stand up. Simply enough, the fact that it's older means that Lucas knew EXACTLY where he had to go.

    But doesn't anyone else feel that the PT is RUSHED? Why was the love story so "unbelievable" (I believed it) in AOTC? Because it was summarized. Why don't we believe Anakin's fall (I wasn't completely convinced) in ROTS? Because it's summarized...

    This is a feeling I got from my second...third? viewing of ROTS: ROTS and ANH don't link up. They don't and can't, and I suggest this as the reason:

    Ever read Oedipus Rex? It's a classic, and "the" Oedipus. But don't forget that, centuries ago, Sophocles' Oedipus was but one of MANY Oedipus plays. Same with the Iliad or Odysey of Homer: Homer's is not the definitive version, but the only one that survived.

    So why did their plays/poems work so well? Well, the characters were well-known to everyone. Greek people didn't NEED exposition for their plays because, hey, they know who this guy is. We can jump straight into dramatic irony - people walk into an Oedipus play KNOWING he'll screw his mom - they're there to see HOW he gets to end up screwing his mom - just as WE walked into the PT wondering how Vader screwed his mo- turned into a robot.

    Well, I think the PT only works BECAUSE we know Vader will eventually fall to the Dark Side. The scenes where his mask falls onto his face were...not particularly good, in my opinion, as stand-alone scenes. If I didn't know who Vader was, I'd be like "what's with this scene? It's weird." BUT...because we know who Vader is, it works. My friend and I both realized afterward: Hey, in real life, people can be burned and have their legs cut off and not need a respirator - why does Vader need one??? Suddenly, the breath mask makes no sense - unless we realize that we didn't see the whole story, just the summary of Vader's robotheosis.

    And so the PT is so rushed and summarized because it's as if Lucas is doing nothing more and going back to say "Ok, this is the short story of how Episodes IV, V and VI happened" - wait, thats about exactly what happened, isn't it? Which, to me, justifies the plot holes of the PT: we don't need the whole plot because we already know how it ends.

    What this implies, though, is that Lucas made a mistake: he says that the movies are meant to be watched I, II, III, IV, V, VI; I suggest that they are BEST watched, because of this summarization, as IV, V, VI, I, II, III. But that's my opinion.

    What this really implies to me, though, is the cultural value that Star Wars has had over the past thirty years.
  24. Winston_Sith

    Winston_Sith Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Apr 8, 2004
    Interesting about the film score.

    The only thing keeping ANH from *completely* bridging the 20 year gap between itself and ROTS is a small musical cue called "the Imperial March" when Vader first boards the Tantive IV.

    Similarly, only thing keeping TESB from *completely* fitting into the rest of the Saga is a small musical cue called the "Emperor/the Sith Theme" during the "Emperor contacts Vader" scene - I mean, they have the *real* Emperor, now. Why don't they have his creepy music?

    ROTJ is quite well done; it has all the relevant musical cues, so doesn't need that much tampering, if any.

    Perhaps they could all could also benefit a little from the inclusion of the Dule of the Fates here and there.

    Lucas is supposed to be reworking the scores for all three of the Post-Old Republic films for the 2007 release of the "Ultimate Edition" DVDs. I'm sure that will fix a lot of the perceived inconsistencies between the "trilogies".
  25. Chewie_Bone

    Chewie_Bone Jedi Youngling

    Jan 29, 2005
    The trilogys are supposed to fit. Simultaniously, these are 2 trilogys, 2 sets of 3, not one big hexology, 1 set of 6. They are they same, yet they are also different. Keep this in mind. They wre designated off from each other for a reason. Each episode is uniquie and should be enjoyed, not criticized.
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