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Lit The two canons and "happy ending overrides"

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Hamburger_Time, Jul 14, 2018.

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Which continuity had the biggest "happy ending override?"

  1. The new canon

    21 vote(s)
    48.8%
  2. Legends

    8 vote(s)
    18.6%
  3. Both were equal

    12 vote(s)
    27.9%
  4. Neither is a true "override"

    11 vote(s)
    25.6%
  5. Other

    2 vote(s)
    4.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Hamburger_Time

    Hamburger_Time Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 13, 2010
    One of the more common criticisms of the new continuity is that it perpetrates a "happy ending override" (to pinch the TVTropes term) on a scale larger than any other in the franchise, with the Heroes of Yavin reduced to miserable outcasts, the Jedi and the New Republic failing, and the Empire's successor state rising to a superpower again. The thing is... is the override rally larger, or is it simply cognitive dissonance?

    It's an absolute fact, after all, that the new canon NR enjoyed a much longer period of uninterrupted peace - the Legends Republic, after all, had to fight off the Imperial Remnant, the Ssi-Ruuk, Nagai, and Tofs within literal days of each other, the Yevetha, the Yuuzhan Vong (taking a huge beating from them in particular), the Confederacy and itself being turned fascist by the original off-his-gourd Solo-spawn, and finally literal Lovecraftian horrors. I'd think that's what you'd call a sizable "override," no?

    On the other hand, the new canon NR was far less resilient, utterly folding in the face of its first major crisis, and nowhere in Legends were the personal accomplishments of the film heroes overridden. So... which is the larger override, you think? I'll confess the new canon's SEEMS bigger to me, but I can't put my finger on why, which is why I'm wondering if it may be cognitive dissonance resulting from being less familiar with it. I'm making this thread in part in hopes of seeing arguments that might help ME decide, too!
     
  2. Jozgar

    Jozgar Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    Legends, in my opinion.
    • The Galactic Civil War continues for another fifteen years after the end of the OT. In fact, many of the most decisive events in the war occur after the events of the films.
    • Palpatine comes back.
    • The Yuuzhan Vong invade and kill hundreds of trillions of beings in a catastrophic conflict that makes the entire Galactic Civil War seem completely pointless in comparison.
    • The Mon Calamari are all but wiped out in a brutal genocide because killing a fan favorite species is EDGY.
    • Oh, and at the end of the timeline the Empire is once again the most powerful entity in the Galaxy. But hey, they're a "benevolent" absolute dictatorship now, so... that's cool I guess?
    At least in Canon, there were nearly thirty years of peace before the next great war started. In Legends, we get a pretty much constant series of devastating wars for the next fifty years.
     
  3. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    Maybe the New Canon fills bigger because of the thirty year gaps that means thirty years worth of story in-between ep 6 and 7 that's going to have to be build up to something just based on necessity of the timeline.

    While in Legends its more Thrawn Trilogy (1-2 years) done....Ok next thing Dark Empire (1-2 years) next thing NJO (X amount of years) Next thing.
     
    Hamburger_Time likes this.
  4. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2007
    That's a bit misleading, as the Mon Calamari genocide took place well over a century after the Battle of Yavin, and we see the Mon Calamari survivors are definitely not out of the fight. Also the GA still has a very determined remnant/resistance in that time period. And to be fair, the nu-EU is still newish and they've been lazy with expanding the sequel era galaxy so we don't know if any other planet is resisting the First Order fleet during TLJ.

    I'd say the sequels had the bigger happy ending override, though its relative of course, and depends on what standard we're using. In Legends, by the time of the Vong War, Luke was happily married, Han and Leia were happily married with three kids, and the New Republic was stable. It nearly collapsed under the Vong onslaught, but it survived and reorganized. And even by the end of FotJ, well, Han and Leia still have one kid left alive and a granddaughter to dote over. Not that I'm saying marriage and kids are absolutely necessary to happiness, but most of the family was still alive and loved each other and the galaxy was mostly at peace. Although if Del Rey had continued with more novels (something like- The Most Super Important Battle in Galactic History!) there would have been more problems, but the main heroes at least would have endured, and the Jedi Order was steadily rebuilding with Luke and other Jedi Masters.

    In nu-canon, Han's dead, killed by his only son who turned out to be an unrepentant jerk. Luke is dead, and all his students are either dead or turned to the darkside. The New Republic (what we've seen of it) was a stagnant mess, with Leia basically ready to call it a day and retire before she found out about the First Order threat. The New Republic has been destroyed (or at least beheaded) with the First Order basically having won the war already. It'll be toppled eventually, but right now there's barely any Resistance left, Luke is dead, and there are no Jedi, well, unless you count Rey. And all that only 30 years after the OT, whereas the Galactic Alliance was toppled by the Sith 130 years after Yavin. So yeah, I'd say the sequels are a bigger override, ruining the happy ending of the OT.

    Its not that I object to more conflicts, its Star Wars of course, but did they have to make the OT characters end their lives as failures? Leia was already an outcast from the New Republic, it was too painful for her and Han to be together because of their horrible son, and Luke spent most of the last years of his life stuck on the wrong idea (that he shouldn't do anything). They couldn't have just kept them in the background as mentors or leaders, they had to kill them all off (well, aside from Leia and unfortunate real life circumstances there of course).
     
  5. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I agree, Legends is far far worse.

    Anything which ends with the Empire in charge of the galaxy is awful.
     
    Jozgar likes this.
  6. Coherent Axe

    Coherent Axe Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2016
    I don't really subscribe to the idea behind a "happy ending override". Any sequel story would require renewed conflict. It's the nature of storytelling, so to frame that as a negative, and assume any resolution must remain so for the following chapter seems to be missing the point of a continuing, generational saga.
     
  7. JediBatman

    JediBatman Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 3, 2015
    In both Legends and Canon there are similarities (resurgent Empire, New Republic growing corrupt and faltering, invasion in the midst of a peaceful era, and a Solo kid going evil).

    I think that the trouble is while BOTH are happy ending overrides, they're different kinds of happy ending overrides.

    In Legends our heroes go through the wringer for several years. They go from galactic crisis to galactic crisis constantly, even having Palpatine coming back from the dead to reclaim Coruscant at one point. The Vong ramp things up to Warhammer 40K levels of grimdark and as @Jozgar said almost makes the previous wars seem like they didn't matter. They experience the death of children, and other heart wrenching tragedies. Heroes are supposed to triumph over adversity, but at times I think they overdid it. On the other side of the coin, it could be argued that the institutions they helped build (the New Republic/Galactic Alliance and the New Jedi Order) show they had a lasting impact. even ~ 100 years later. Yes, I wasn't too happy with the Benevolent Empire direction Legacy went for, but let's not forget that Gar Stazi of the Galactic Alliance Remnant and K'Khruk of the Jedi Order are also part of that Triumvirate.

    In Canon, I really liked that our heroes got a well deserved rest after the Galactic Civil War. Instead of having to deal with Threat to the Galaxy #378 each week, they got to bask in the fruits of their labor for a while (though since conflict is the source of all drama, of course we haven't seen much of this era). But the ST arguably did more to undo the heroe's accomplishments. The New Republic is gone. The Jedi are gone. (And since Luke implied he had a whole whopping 13 students, the Jedi have been near extinct for half a century.) Now the ST isn't over yet, and odds are pretty darn good that the Resistance will end up forming some kind of democratic Good Guy government and Rey will end up teaching others like Broom Boy to be a Jedi. But as of right now, they're flat out gone.

    So what's better and what's worse? A Happy Ending Override that puts our heroes through absolute hell and massive casualties, but leaves some of the works they built still standing? Or a Happy Ending Overide that lets our heroes enjoy a long period of success and retirement, only to end that period with a lot of their work undone?
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
  8. Jozgar

    Jozgar Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    You're conveniently forgetting that the Vong War happened even earlier than the war with the First Order and was far, far, far more devastating. Is the extermination of trillions somehow less of a happy ending override, just because the New Republic was reorganized afterward? Even though it will almost certainly be reorganized after the First Order is defeated as well?

    Jacen Solo also turned into a huge rotten egg and killed is mother-in-law, sooooo........

    Let's not pretend that Legends was free from character deaths. Chewie being crushed by a moon, anyone?

    Characters dying is not, in and of itself, a happy ending override. Luke died a hero and a legend, which is a happy ending in its own right. And Luke's Jedi Order isn't extinct- it still has one member, and she's pretty determined to set things right. Let's not pretend that the Jedi Order hasn't had close brushes with death before. Luke's legacy has not been destroyed.

    It's difficult to make absolute assertions about whether certain OT elements are now "meaningless" while the ST is still left unfinished.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
    Jedi Princess likes this.
  9. FiveFireRings

    FiveFireRings Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Whoa, did that really happen? I feel like I'm moderately well-informed on happenings in Legends after I stopped following it closely, but ouch! That makes me glad I stepped off when I did!

    There's a sense in which this gets at my problems with later EU. The OT3 had plot armor in case future films were going to adapt the EU continuity, which was never going to happen. So those guys were going to basically live forever while horrible, horrible things happened to non-film characters they loved. They were like Anne Rice vampires in a sense... immortal and kinda miserable.
     
    Jedi Princess likes this.
  10. JediBatman

    JediBatman Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 3, 2015
    I think that's a bit overblown, we definitely see Mon Calamari survivors. And unlike killing a beloved character off for shock value, the genocide against the Mon Calamari is thoroughly explored and provides story and character opportunities (plus it raises the stakes). Though that's just my opinion.
     
    kalzeth likes this.
  11. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Star Wars Legacy Comics, set 137-138 years after A New Hope. Published by Dark Horse Comics.
     
  12. Fallen Jedi Master

    Fallen Jedi Master Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2017
    Legends lets face and don't use the excuse luke was happliy married his wife would be murdered and lot have offer stuff happen in legends
     
  13. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2013
    A Happy ending override is kind of required, so I don't judge either canons on it. However, the Legends NR didn't die in a day and Luke actually succeeded in remaking the Jedi Order in such a way that even Krayt failed to purge it.
     
  14. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006
    The New Republic in Canon was at peace and didn't have their assets in one place. Not to mention that no one expected Starkiller Base.
    And also we don't know anything about Luke's Jedi.

    You need to learn patience.
     
  15. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2013
    No one expected the Vong either, yet they came and the NR survived, even if reforming itself.
     
  16. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I don't consider the Galactic Alliance the new Republic since it was ruled by a Triumvirate.
     
  17. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Yeah, how well did those reforms go? Troy Denning made the GA worse then the NR and in the end, the so-called Galactic Federation of Free Alliances was a complete failure.
     
  18. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    The ST is far worse and far more depressing than Legends.

    And I say this as someone who hated where Denning took Legends in the end.
     
  19. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2016
    In the EU (Going off of Legacy) the Big Three got to live out their years and created a stable galaxy. 100 years later sure the Sith came back but the Alliance and Empire were strong enough to fight back and defeat the Sith. The galaxy could survive without the big three.

    In the ST Han was a failure and was killed by his own son.
    Luke's Jedi order failed and he retired a bitter old man. He died so 20-something people wouldn't die. 350+ Resistance-ers still ended up dead.
    Leia's Republic was a failure and ended up "decimated" in a few days. Her Resistance (The only other hope for the galaxy) was also pretty much decimated.
     
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  20. The Positive Fan

    The Positive Fan Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2015
    What a shock that the status quo as of the second act of a three-act trilogy is compared to the status quo of 100 years after all the corresponding events in Legends are over and done with and found to be "more depressing."
     
  21. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    What a shock that The Positive Fan is yet again whining about the opinions of others. It's almost as if you're roleplaying a satire of your username, the so called positive fan who does nothing but whine about negativity.
     
  22. The Positive Fan

    The Positive Fan Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2015
    [​IMG]
     
  23. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    We can't tell until IX is released, but the idea that the ST timeline is more depressing is absurd. There were trillions more dead, more worlds destroyed and near endless war in the EU timeline.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
    Jedi Princess likes this.
  24. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    The legends post ROTJ was one of near unremitting war and calamity with moments of happiness and rest in between. The period between the GCW and the YVW and the period between the YVW and the Dark Nest Crisis and the period between that and the SGCW.

    With the 15 years after Endor being of war and alien invasion with brief periods in which things settled down.

    However both the characters and institutions endured far longer and took far greater punishment than they did in canon-Han and Leia lose their two sons, Mara dies, Luke is exiled, however he has a son of his own, but the solo line continues-Jaina helps create the Felpire and Jacen leaves a positive legacy in Allana and her being the Jedi queen. Anakin of course died a hero.

    The NR/GA last a lot longer in legends and while it takes several beatings it endures and not even Krayt can fully destroy the legacy of mon Mothma and Ackbar-with gar Stazi apart of the triumvirate.

    So legends has more war, death, destruction and sorrow it does have a better balance in the end as opposed to what Canon looks like right now.

    That may change as the era between the OT and ST is developed but legends has more silver linings-more grass on the other side-there's more blood sweat and tears in legends but the end is a victory with institutions enduring and the hero's at least appearing victorious at the end of legacy volume 2.

    The losses suffered in canon both in terms of destruction and the blows the hero's suffer are far greater with far less to mitigate them.

    For example while Han and Leia suffer way more grief than canon Han and Leia do(not that they don't but Kylo is one child as opposed to two) they stick together and find some degree of peace. Han and Leia in canon split-they can't handle the burden Kylo places on them. In legends they survive as a married couple.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
  25. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The St is 34 ABY or so right? The NJO series ends 29 ABY. DNT is 35-36 ABY. So what would be the better comparison? During The Unifying Force, we see the governments of the galaxy united under one banner. The New Jedi Order is present in the galaxy. Only Anakin and Chewie are dead. The OT Big 3 are alive but slowing down. They were inspiring and were inspired by people rising to the occasion to fight this war. The future is bright for Jacen, Jaina and Ben. The heroes of the Rebellion came out of retirement to fight, the government wasn’t wiped out in a day. Etc. Still E9 to go but really hard for me to care at the moment.