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Senate The US Politics discussion

Discussion in 'Community' started by Ghost, Dec 6, 2012.

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  1. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    You mean the Arizona definition of "illegal " is not "has brown skin and walks outside"?

    Expanding on what ShaneP said: I like Thom Hartmann's summation of this. We do not have an illegal immigrant problem, we have an illegal employer problem.

    In eastern North Carolina, a lot of undocumented workers are hired to pull tobacco, an industry that I hope will implode upon its cancerous self within the next decade but let's proceed.

    An undocumented worker making less than minimum wage (because the employer can get away with it) does not have the hundreds of dollars to pay for the citizenship path that we currently have in place. We need something a little more streamlined
     
    Jedi Merkurian , ShaneP and harpua like this.
  2. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002
    this.


    this is another thing. i mean, as far as i know this is actually a thing, i wouldnt dispute that day-labor is going on in arizona, tho i dont have the exact numbers for how common an arrangement this is for undocumented arizonans making their living -- most of the undocumented people ive interacted with/heard of seem to have a much more permanent arrangement with their employers. but in any case, i cant say i notice unwashed mexican hordes on every street-corner either. and its not that i live in some ivory tower either. as ive mentioned before, ive spent significant time in guadalupe, the single poorest town in the valley, and ive been everywhere from el mirage to gold canyon to queen creek to SRPMIC for another job i had which had me on travel most of the time throughout not only the metro area but all of pinal, maricopa and yavapai counties. my parents live in gold canyon at the utter east of the valley, so im over there a fair amount, and my sister lives on the border of mesa and apache junction, in the same area. ive lived in east mesa and downtown/central phoenix. i also worked in apache junction for two years. so really, you'd have a hard time telling me im too insulated or w/e
     
  3. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002

    okay but we speak a lot of different languages? and as far as learning to speak english, you'll be pleased to know that the spanish-speaking immigrant wave of the half-century has had a shorter generational turn-around for language loss ("assimilation" - forgetting spanish and speaking only english) than any other previous wave of immigration
     
  4. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    @Rogue_Ten Man. I made an observation about jay-walker years ago and it's turned in "Illegals pooring over the freeway."

    And when did I say that Guadalupe was entirely illegal?

    And don't you think that I talk about the political issues of the day with my friends? It's perfectly logical that immigration would come up as a topic in my daily conversations. It's through those debates that my friends told me about their parents. I come off badly here. I can understand that. But in person I'm pretty approachable and disarming and my jokes work much better.

    ShaneP Reagan did what you suggested with 3,000,000 illegals. Clinton did the same thing with 6,000,000. Now we have 12,000,000 to figure out what to do with. Time to try something different or we will have 24,000,000.
     
  5. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    Prominent language in every day commercial and societal discourse, not exclusive. And yes, as I noted above with the younger kids of the family I know: they are first generation Americans and can speak and write english very fluently.
     
  6. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    And what happened? We had one of the longest peacetime economic expansions in our history. Those immigrants didn't harm us. They bettered us as a nation.

    So what would you try differently?

    edit:
    I just want to add that some of the volunteers in today's armed forces are also first generation Americans. That has historical precedent going back to the Irish Brigade of the Civil War and earlier. But you wouldn't know that listening to the hysterics of some on the right.
     
  7. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    I understand and appriciate the loyalty of first generation Americans, ShaneP That's not the point.

    And yes, some of thehighjackers from 9/11 were illegals. It matters. Those illegal immigrants harmed us. We don't need to change our laws as much as we need to actually enforce them. Then we can truely see how they should be changed.

    What would I do differently? First I'd secure the border. Then we can move on from there.
     
  8. Harpua

    Harpua Chosen One star 9

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    Mar 12, 2005
    So, which Native American tribe are your from, J-Rod?
     
  9. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002

    then why did you bring it up in a conversation about immigration if you were just "observing a jay-walker"?
     
  10. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    I don't pretend to know an immense amount of technical information about the September 11th attacks, but a cursory glance at Google would appear to discredit this notion. Or, at least, you appear to be making some omissions. All of the hijackers were initially legal visitors with visas, and somewhere around three of them had visas that expired. That makes them illegal migrants in the technical sense, but your argument is placing a contextual conflation on this type of illegal migration with border crossing, when there's clearly no meaningful relationship.
     
  11. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    I for one am glad that we're doing our best to send those tens of thousands of voter-fraudin' terr'ist children back to the Central American hellholes-- hellholes thanks in part to [face_flag] -- from which they made a desperate trek through Mexico. The UN says they should be granted refugee status? What? I don't see the UN trying to help refugees.
     
  12. Juliet316

    Juliet316 37X Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Apr 27, 2005
  13. Rogue_Follower

    Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2003
    Maybe. But that type of thing is just the tip of the iceberg of what's to come as drones become cheaper, miniaturized cameras become more powerful, and military technology is reapplied to civilian uses. (Oh, and your local government may not inform you that they use these technologies, because they want to "mitigate complaints".)

    While I suspect the SCOTUS might rule against having a drone peep in your bedroom window, what about hovering 50 feet above your driveway? 200 feet above your block? 10,000 feet above your city? They've ruled on this general subject before (e.g. Florida v Riley, California v Ciraolo) and allowed police surveillance from heights on the order of hundreds to thousands of feet. Though I'm sure there are still questions about technicalities like loiter time---do the police need a warrant to park a drone or aerostat over your house for extended periods of time (days, weeks)? And what about generalized aerial surveillance? Is there any difference between putting CCTV cameras on a street corner versus a blimp?

    Bottom line: ubiquitous surveillance is now an issue of legality, not capability.
     
  14. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001

    I don't know the particulars here but I can't see why one would expect privacy in airspace. Is there any legal precedent showing people should have a reasonable expectation of privacy?

    edit: Rogue_Follower answered my question. :)
     
  15. Vaderize03

    Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 1999
    I'm wondering whether or not it will be ruled legal to disable a warrantless drone over private property, say by shooting a laser at it, for example.

    I'm thinking no, but the Court is fairly unpredictable.

    Peace,

    V-03
     
  16. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002
    shooting a laser at anythign for any purpose is always legal, as outlined in the "awesomeness clause" of the constitution
     
  17. KissMeImARebel

    KissMeImARebel Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
  18. Juliet316

    Juliet316 37X Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2005
    Well they did rule a few weeks ago that Cell phones can't be searched without a warrant...
     
  19. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    I don't think so. Kryllo is pretty instructive here -- used to be that whatever police could view from a public street was fair game, not a search. If they saw stuff from the curb, it wasn't going to be excluded as a 4th amendment violation. But when they used a thermal imaging scanner, the nature of the technology completely changed the picture. Yeah, they could deploy the scanner from the curb -- but it was far, far more invasive to privacy than what you could see/smell/hear with the naked eye (or with a trained dog) from the curb.

    Similarly, a drone is so dissimilar to a helicopter or plane flying overhead that I think the court will distinguish it. See, the one thing the court is actually really protective of is a person's own home. The conservative wing -- particularly Scalia -- is extremely leery of police overreach into people's private dwellings. So while you might expect very little from those justices in other civil liberties related areas... there's little to worry about here.
     
  20. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002
    pretty sure "Kryllo" is either a video game character or one of plato's works of socrates fanfiction so im not sure what jurisdiction it would have over united states privacy jurisprudence :p
     
  21. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    Option C: Social media tech company that is/soon will be bankrupt.
     
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  22. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002

    you see, Kryllo is all about people... and changing the world

    i bet their mascot is a rounded, minimalist krill
     
  23. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000

    Inserted an r.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyllo_v._United_States

    You get two points for the Plato joke though.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
  24. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002
    oh, i got a million of those
     
  25. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002

    following links on that case eventually led me to the realization that canada's supreme court dresses like a bunch of santa clauses

    [​IMG]
     
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