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Senate The US Politics discussion

Discussion in 'Community' started by Ghost, Dec 6, 2012.

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  1. heels1785

    heels1785 Skywalker Saga + JCC Manager / Finally Won A Draft star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2003
    You're correct.
     
  2. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I still LOL when I see Pajamas Media, National Review, Faux Noise or anything with "conservative" in the title of a source though.

    Taking such citations seriously would mean actually caring what those bloggers or writers think, and I don't.

    Talking Points Memo or Daily Kos might be just as biased on the other side but if you can't give me evidence as reported by the Associated Press, I have a hard time taking it seriously.
     
  3. heels1785

    heels1785 Skywalker Saga + JCC Manager / Finally Won A Draft star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2003
    I agree with you. I guess I see tiers on each side - I don't bother with Kos/Mother Jones on the left, or Breitbart/RedState/Caller on the right. Drudge and HuffPo really just aggregate, although they have their tilt in what they report.

    I like RealClearPolitics for the data and a somewhat balanced mix of aggregated articles from various newspapers, and the AP/BBC for news.
     
  4. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    You misunderstand me, that was also part of my critique. "We're super reputable and independent but incidentally here's us making fun of voter id opponents."

    Also I legitimately cannot stop laughing at the thought of the ultra-kowtowing mess that is Obamacare being something that required a vast, "left wing" conspiracy.

    Edit: No, let me expand that, this entire "voter fraud" scare the right pulls out to do the rounds every election year is goddamn hilarious. "But there has to be fraud!" yells the blogosphere, stomping its foot in anger, "there is no way this country would willingly elect a bla- I MEAN, A LEFTY. A SOCIALIST LEFTY."
     
  5. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    Well, you have to factor in that most of the focus for voting fraud is dependent on who is in the White House, but it's not limited to one party over the other. It makes no sense for the majority party to claim fraud. If a GOP President was currently serving, then the fraud claims would be reversed. During 2000, and 2004, there were Herculean efforts by the democratic party to explain away how Bush won twice, and voter fraud was the most reactionary way. If you want a textbook example of crazy conspiracy theories try and connect the dots with regards to the "Diebold Conspiracy" that was supposed to exist back then. From claims that Diebold was own by 2 brothers who were secretly on Carl Rove's payroll, to Bush insiders rerouting vote tallies and changing votes after that had been cast, to everything in between.

    Of course, in 2007, Diebold changed its name for the upcoming elections, and despite the fact that the machines were the same with a new name, democratic claims of voter fraud miraculously disappeared because their candidate won. And the fraud switched parties.
     
  6. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Dropping firebrand character for a moment I am keenly aware of the fact that the "But but but voter fraud!" cry is an annoyingly common cut across both sides of the aisle (Much like "Damned uninformed voters!" and "[Name] is literally Hitler!"), but it's being used as a rationalization for pushing some measures that I personally consider pretty noxious regarding mandatory voter ID laws and the elimination of mail-in ballots, which really grinds my gears, y'know?
     
  7. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    I'd say it's an issue that isn't either/or. I don't really have an issue with voter ID requirements if allowances are made for people to get ID's. In IL, for example, you can get a state ID, or Driver's License for $5 a year, and I think they may even issue free ID's to those who receive public assistance. IL doesn't have an ID requirement, but to simply dismiss the proposal away as "poor people wouldn't be able to get an ID to vote" is kind of overly-reactionary as well. There aren't going to be too many people in the modern world who can't afford a $5 per year ID (assuming it isn't a free one) Next door to IL, in Wisconsin, you could bring in property tax bill, or electric bill, or lease agreement to prove you lived in the district. Again, how many people don't have something? If you're completely off the grid, you may have larger issues. But the bottom line is the amount of people without a lease, or property tax, or electric bill is probably pretty small.

    Even mail-in ballots should have some form of accountability. To have a completely open mail-in ballot is stupid, but yet, some states have them. I just think like with anything, balance is probably a good idea.
     
  8. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    I reject that sites like DailyKos and ThinkProgress are on "the left." Being shills for the Democratic party by pretending that the party supports "progressive"* policies isn't the same thing.

    *I also hate that label because the actual Progressive movement in the U.S. was solidly anti-worker (recall that Ted Roosevelt took The Jungle as a call to found the FDA rather than its intended socialist message) and pro-imperialism (said Roosevelt was also responsible for the American empire). Plus they did nothing for minorities. Just because they were slightly better than the unapologetic plutocrats of the Gilded Age doesn't mean we should emulate them and adopt their label. Then again, Elizabeth Warren is pro-imperialism so I guess she'd fit right in.
     
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  9. mavjade

    mavjade Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 10, 2005
    How do you propose having more accountability than there already is (I'm not being sarcastic, I'm actually interested)? At least in, MA you have to attest that you will not vote in person, or if you do there is a process to have your mail in vote not counted. It says very clearly at the top there is a hefty fine and jail time for not following the rules.

    I had to do an absentee ballot this year because I'm going to be out of the country. Other than that, I often vote absentee or early vote because if I work on election day there is no possible way I can get there before or after work, the polls don't open early enough or stay open late enough. To be told I couldn't vote because I was working would be ridiculous.
     
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  10. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Eh, 'low information voter' is a legitimate concept
     
  11. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    I'm far less concerned with "low information voters" than I am of the current trend of "single-issue voters" and when their single-issue will correspond with a divergence from social norms.

    As I say, I can very easily imagine a scenario where we're going to find a major election with a pro-choice, anti-gay marriage politician on one side and a anti-choice, pro-gay marriage politician on the other side. That's going to be a total crap-show.
     
  12. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    They certainly are, but Ramza meant blaming such voters for election outcomes one does not like. I'd say that's a valid observation. Where I'd disagree with his post is the assessment of voter fraud. At least in the last 20 years or so, Democrats have not complained of voter fraud, but of election fraud. That is, that the systems we use are susceptible to manipulation, or that officials administering the election are being unduly influenced by some or another group. By contrast, Republicans have consistently complained about voter fraud, where they postulate that the elections are being manipulated by people submitting false ballots that should not qualify. That's quite a distinct focus.
     
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  13. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Perhaps then the answer will lie... somewhere in the middle.

    Hahahaha no I'll just vote SPUSA and deliberately throw my vote away.
     
  14. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001

    [​IMG]

    But really, you know I prefer more nuanced takes on things and the single-issue voting problem just drives me bonkers and I wish it would go away.
     
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  15. Beezer

    Beezer Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 5, 2013
    Don't fool yourself; both sides want the other side's supporters not to vote. That's the whole point of negative advertising which, despite how much people claim to hate them, are amazingly effective.
     
  16. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    I suspect it's probably only going to get worse as time goes on and it continues to become easier and easier to find like-minded individuals rallying around a single topic on which you have a particularly strong opinion. Personally I'm hoping to see an Android party and an iOS party.
     
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  17. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Are there really all that many single-issue votes? Like, for example, I'm sure most of the people who vote pro-life are also anti-gay marriage, anti-immigration, anti-Islam, pro-business, etc.

    I voted for Green and Peace and Freedom candidates in California's primary-in-name-only (really a first-round general election). SPUSA wasn't on the ballot. The two candidates for each office in the "general" ended up being a Democrat and a Republican anyway. Go figure! In retrospect I should've written in Eugene Debs and Emma Goldman and Howard Zinn et al. I long for the days when a socialist candidate for president would get a whole six percent of the vote and then get thrown in prison for protesting a war.
     
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  18. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002
    local voting is probably way more important/useful than voting in federal or even state-level elections (in most states) at this point. look at seattle's Socialist Alternative organization and the Kshama Sawant campaigns and the attention they garnered in sort of kicking minimum wage raises into action. this is, of course, "maintenance", survival-level (as opposed to transformative) politics, but at least something vaguely unorthodox/pro-worker is to some extent being wedged into the "national discussion". it almost warms the cockles of my cold, dead, marxoteen heart
     
  19. Juliet316

    Juliet316 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2005
  20. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002
    1st of all "the wife of mitch mcconnell's family"

    2nd of all... naw i cant
     
  21. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    Raising the minimum wage = marxist? Oh, you said it "almost" warms your heart. :D I guess a living wage would be party time.
     
  22. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002
    i wouldnt even call a living wage transformative because you'd still be talking abotu a wage -- itd fall more under the social democracy heading. marxist politics are transformative. as i explicitely said, suggesting that the minimum wage should probably be raised is maintenance/survival politics, not transformative/revolutionary

    but i think i can forgive myself for getting a little bit excited about the potential slackening of the rope in the short term
     
  23. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    To be directed by Michael Bay and featuring 'splosions.

    [​IMG]
     
  24. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002
    or ya know, just changing the mode of production and relation of people to their work, rather than shoring up the living standard of the oppressed class periodically keynes-style
     
  25. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Sure, in Seattle or Portland or San Francisco or Berkeley or maybe Austin, NYC, L.A., others. Not in my home of Orange ****ing County where even Democrats have to move to the right to get elected (that's changing but not quickly enough). The only things I feel that matter are the state and local ballot measures. And I will take this opportunity to complain once again that we're expected to vote for ****ing judges.
     
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