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Senate The US Politics discussion

Discussion in 'Community' started by Ghost, Dec 6, 2012.

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  1. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    I've already responded to this. I guess I'll do it again.

    Supreme Court appointments are a very tiny part of what a United States President actually does. Yes, "liberal" Clinton appointees may bring movement on a few issues, but that's not a reason to vote for her. Certainly not for someone like me who doesn't believe in incrementalism and doubts the sincerity of most Democrats. What she does with the other 99.99% of her time as President also counts, and that includes actions that will directly and indirectly cause the deaths of human beings.
     
    Lord Vivec and Rogue_Ten like this.
  2. Yodaminch

    Yodaminch Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2002

    I did not say you were. I'm simply pointing out the fact that others in the the topic as well as political pundits, pollsters (fivethirtyeight among them) and other commentators have criticized her both for staying silent and then for opening her mouth.
     
    darklordoftech likes this.
  3. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    Hillary's foreign policy is the area of most concern I have.
     
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  4. Juliet316

    Juliet316 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2005
    And not Russia loving Trump's?
     
  5. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002
    It's astonishing how well trained in binary thinking they have you all
     
  6. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001

    :c3po:
     
  7. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    The Supreme Court has a massive impact on the lives of people, particularly minorities. You know this as well as I do. Mass incarceration is allowed to continue in part (not entirely, but in part) because the Court has repeatedly blocked challenges to various should-be unconstitutional laws and practices.
     
  8. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    The SCOTUS isn't going to reverse mass incarceration on its own. Ending terrible legislation, a failed drug policy, and mandatory minimums for minor drug offenses would do more.
     
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  9. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2013
    Being able to veto conservative legislation coming from a GOP-controlled Congress is also huge. With gerrymandering the way it is and so many states controlled by the GOP, it'll be forever before the Dems gain control of both houses of Congress.

    Without a Democratic presidential veto and a liberal Supreme Court, the US will look take a giant step backwards for a very long time.
     
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  10. Vaderize03

    Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 1999
    @ShaneP--

    None of which will happen with a conservative Supreme Court.

    What you're leaving out is that the Court can block laws as easily as it can uphold them. Given the choice, I think the chance for enduring liberal majority far outweighs Clinton's hawkish tendencies. I'm not happy about it, but I can live with it.
     
  11. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001

    Well I can live with it too. I just wont like it very much. She seems intent on casting Russia as a new enemy just like the neocons have been attempting to do.
    I'm not very optimistic she would keep us out of war any more than Trump would.
     
  12. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001

    No, it's not going to reverse it on its own. However, it can and will chip away at it by reversing itself (in effect, if not officially) through taking cases it takes. Much of that "terrible legislation" has been allowed to stand because the Court has ruled against challenges to it throughout the country. The ACLU and NAACP have challenged laws time and again, only to have the Court block those challenges (sometimes overturning lower court wins).
     
  13. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Clinton is not going to have a temper tantrum because she perceives that someone called her a name, and send bombs immediately.

    I would not put that past Trump.

    Clinton is more warmongering than I would like as well, but that's the difference.
     
  14. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Exactly. I wasn't particularly thrilled with the first Clinton administration, but we survived.

    I'm not sure if the US would survive a Trump presidency. I'm not sure the world would survive a Trump presidency. And not really because of Trump - he's obviously a lazy glory hound that wants the title but not the responsibility. It's Pence and Breitbart and Ailes and all those little friendly bunch of sociopaths lurking in the background that would be running the country.
     
  15. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2013
    Plus, the US does provide some stability to the world. That's why so many countries are afraid of a Trump presidency. The US has definitely made some awful foreign policies moves and used force inappropriately, but no other country or multinational organization is able to accomplish what the US is able to accomplish.

    Just one example: could any other country force Iran into that nuclear deal?

    And Trump wants to undo it, so what's the alternative then?

    Obama forced that deal onto Iran, in part, to prevent Israeli airstrikes. Netanyahu was already to go, but he wanted assurance that the US would have its back if things got ugly. Obama would not give those assurances. Obama's fear of the course Netanyahu wanted to take was part of why he was so adamant about pushing through that deal. (It's also probably partially why Iran went along with it.)

    When Trump rescinds that Iran deal, the world will never be able to make another deal with Iran. Iran will start producing nuclear material, Israel will feel they have to strike because there won't be any diplomatic solution anymore, even one they don't like. So, Israel strikes, and then we're probably back fighting in the Middle East again, or at least there will be more instability.

    The US plays a vital role in handling difficult situations like this. Would it be better if the US wasn't the world's policeman? Yes, in the long run, but definitely not in the short run.

    Has the US made huge mistakes? Of course.

    Is the world even close to coming up with an alternative to US influence? No way.


    It's this too, but I think this factors Trump too much out of the equation. Trump won't want to look weak. His subordinates might get the US into a position where tensions rise, and then Trump will not want to back down. So, he turns to force or uses rhetoric that escalates the situation that ends up leading to a use of force.
     
  16. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2013
    If you see how Hillary's handling this, she's not backing down at all. She wants this fight. She's digging in deeper and using this controversy to define Trump as outside the mainstream, and leaving any undecided voter with the feeling that if I'm with Trump, I'm siding with the worst of the worst.


    This is obvious when you read Clinton's full statement of regret:

    “Last night I was ‘grossly generalistic,’ and that’s never a good idea. I regret saying ‘half’ – that was wrong. But let’s be clear, what’s really ‘deplorable’ is that Donald Trump hired a major advocate for the so-called ‘alt-right’ movement to run his campaign and that David Duke and other white supremacists see him as a champion of their values. It’s deplorable that Trump has built his campaign largely on prejudice and paranoia and given a national platform to hateful views and voices, including by retweeting fringe bigots with a few dozen followers and spreading their message to 11 million people. It’s deplorable that he’s attacked a federal judge for his ‘Mexican heritage,’ bullied a Gold Star family because of their Muslim faith, and promoted the lie that our first black president is not a true American. So I won’t stop calling out bigotry and racist rhetoric in this campaign. I also meant what I said last night about empathy, and the very real challenges we face as a country where so many people have been left out and left behind. As I said, many of Trump’s supporters are hard-working Americans who just don’t feel like the economy or our political system are working for them. I’m determined to bring our country together and make our economy work for everyone, not just those at the top. Because we really are ‘stronger together.’”


    Trump responded with this tweet: "While Hillary said horrible things about my voters, and while many of her voters won't vote for me, I still respect them all!"

    Hillary responded with this tweet: "Except for African Americans, Muslims, Latinos, immigrants, women, veterans--and any so-called "losers" and "dummies."


    She's going to keep running with this.
     
  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Now that is calling it like it is. :D
     
  18. Vaderize03

    Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 1999
    Her response to Trump's tweet was gold.
     
  19. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Trump can call Hispanics rapists, Muslims should be banned from coming here, be offensive to African-Americans and women and disabled people, etc.

    But Hillary saying a lot of Trump's supporters are deplorable bigots is too far?


    There's nothing shameful about being Hispanic (and not like you have a choice there), there's nothing shameful about being Muslim, there's nothing shameful about being African-American or being a woman or having a disability, etc.

    But there is something shameful about being a bigot. And it's something you can choose to stop being, too.


    Bigots ought to be shamed and called out. We ought not let open bigotry have a resurgence in U.S. politics.

    Trump isn't only a political opponent, and he isn't just incompetent... he helps bigotry, and he reveres dictators who oppose us on the global stage.



    EDIT:

    Trump's current campaign manager called Trump supporters "downright nasty" a few months ago:
    Link
     
  20. Rogue_Follower

    Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2003
    In other, non-election US political news, a series of articles in The Guardian detailing the events surrounding the discovery of the Panetta Review [on CIA torture] and the ensuing CIA vs Senate Intelligence Committee controversy :

    Part 1: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...der-daniel-jones-senate-torture-investigation
    Part 2: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...estigation-constitutional-crisis-daniel-jones
    Part 3: [to be released Sunday]

    Look for fun cameos by the White House running interference for the CIA. Classic Obama!
     
  21. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    This is strained and a little silly. You really want to argue that the best, most direct way to end mass incarceration is to nominate someone for the Presidency who will launch several policies we largely disagree with, but who will perhaps appoint justices who will, as one very small fraction of their work, tangentially address some of the most egregious abuses of this sort, even though in reality the wide discretion that prosecutors have is much more responsible for driving the problem to begin with?

    It's okay if people who already supporters want to consider this an added benefit. But I find it unreasonable to tell someone that this should be their primary motivation for voting, as if there is no more direct way to help minorities.
     
  22. Rogue1-and-a-half

    Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 2000
    You guys really blew up the General Election thread? That's almost funny.
     
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  23. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002
    I think jello's just throwing a tantrum and the others haven't talked him down off the ledge yet.

    Term limits for congress? How about term limits for mods lol
     
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  24. Rogue1-and-a-half

    Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 2000
    Duplicate threads can be locked. Stupid threads can be locked. No thread should ever be locked just because people are being horrible to each other. There's much to learn from a good death threat/inappropriate picture/flame war.
     
  25. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002
    It doesn't even make any sense cuz the discussion just immediately shifted over to this thread
     
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