Senate The U.S. Politics thread

Discussion in 'Community' started by Ghost, Dec 6, 2012.

  1. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    For electoral reasons, I hope the immigration bill fails. This is the GOP's only real chance to help themselves in 2014 and even more so in 2016. It's the prisoner's dilemma on a large scale: It's better for individual representatives to vote against it, even as it's better for the party to vote for it.
  2. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    Why would you hope for the less good thing just because it might ruin Republican chances in 2014? I thought we were about getting good policies, not stopping good-ish ones just to keep the Dems in power.
    Summer Dreamer likes this.
  3. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    I think the House will vote for their own version, it'll go to conference, and the bill to emerge will have security measures and amnesty measures both. And it will eventually pass.

    If the House GOP were smart, they would just try and strengthen the border security quotient and vote for something rather than kill the whole thing.

    Fact is, we need those H1B visa people here and more. Brain drain is crippling us.
    Last edited by ShaneP, Jun 27, 2013
  4. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    Why?

    When the Democrats come back in power, what do you want them to accomplish... besides Immigration reform? Serious question. This may also be the only major legislative accomplishment of Obama's second term.

    Also, it's not like Hispanics will start voting for the GOP only because of this bill. Despite popular belief, polls show that the Hispanics who vote are actually more socially liberal than white voters. They also strongly support government intervention in education and healthcare.


    Heh.
    Juliet316 likes this.
  5. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    I doubt you're serious. There were literally two Supreme Court decisions in as many days Congress can do something about. They can give the VRA a new, stronger section 4 and repeal section 2 of DOMA. Whether they will is another matter.
  6. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    The answer to your "why?" questions is because I believe the GOP needs to be annihilated, crushed at least to a comparable degree that the British Conservative Party was in 1997. That party no longer exists. It does, but it also doesn't. The Republican party of today is an authoritarian party that exists to do little more than impede progress and obstruct any kind of real policy making, the kind of policies that help real people improve their lives. Until it is no longer a viable force, or has been thoroughly and fundamentally changed, it must be fought with until it is changed or destroyed (whichever one it ends up being).

    The Republican base needs to be marginalized and shown that while it is entitled to whatever beliefs it chooses to have, it is not entitled to hold the rest of the country hostage to them. The failure of this particular immigration reform will further impair Republican electoral prospects going forward, which will allow for more Democrats to be elected and more constructive, practical policies to be put into effect. It will also allow for truly comprehensive immigration reform, with enough support that the xenophobes are relegated to angry comments on backwater right wing message boards and letters to the editor that no one but the echo chamber reads. In that event, there would be no haggling over rights for LGBT rights with regard to immigrants, or health care, or anything along those lines. It would be recognized as being just how things should be.

    In effect, a scorched earth policy without the scorched earth. They should be finished as a national party, either until they fundamentally change or until they no longer have any real power (and presumably are replaced by something better).
    Last edited by KnightWriter, Jun 27, 2013
  7. Condition2SQ Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 4
    Especially perverse about the present manifestation of the Republican party is that it turns the very idea of "conservatism" into a joke. The David Frums, Andrew Sullivans, Thomas Sowells etc of the world--intellectual conservatives who really have something to contribute to the discourse, and the burgeoning generation of people who share their sentiments to some degree--have no place to call home. No self-respecting intellectual college graduate, whatever problems he/she may have with Democratic orthodoxy, is going to identify themselves with the farce that is the Republican Party.
    Last edited by Condition2SQ, Jun 27, 2013
  8. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    I should note that in no way do I want any kind of world where the Democratic party rules everything and has unquestioned political dominance. I believe that there should be a sensible party that challenges it and has real solutions to the problems we face in the world today. The Republican party of today bears no resemblance to that party, nor will it unless it undergoes a profound change.

    Edit: Just listen to H.W. here:



    He'd be booed off a stage if he said those things in certain parts of the country now.
    Last edited by KnightWriter, Jun 27, 2013
  9. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    ? What are you talking about? You agree with KW that the immigration bill should fail just so the Republicans get hurt???


    Yeah, I think the GOP still needs a wake-up call, losing in a landslide with Cruz or Santorum as the nominee perhaps.

    But you're effectively shooting yourself in the foot by hoping the immigration bill fails. It's the policy that matters. And this is the first time the GOP is slightly getting better... why would you want to punish them for finally trying to do the right thing? The GOP isn't going to completely reinvent themselves overnight, but step by step. This could be the first step.
    Last edited by Summer Dreamer, Jun 27, 2013
  10. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    I'm a strategist at heart, and I also like to look at the big picture. The big picture tells me that better policies and programs will happen if the Republican party as we know it today is destroyed or fundamentally changed.

    This isn't the GOP getting better-- not at all. It would be mostly Democrats voting for the bill, with as few Republicans as possible voting for it (in the House, at least). I want to see the GOP exiled into a political wilderness from which the only escape is total change or annihilation. I want to see it possible and even likely that many Republicans are able to be in favor of things like this, just as many were in favor of civil rights progress in the 1960s.

    If an immigration bill passes, it will either be stripped of some important things, or have unacceptable elements put into it to placate people who shouldn't be placated. It would also give the GOP some credit where none is warranted. If Republicans want credit, they should embrace immigration reform in the House, rather than ducking for cover and playing musical chairs to see who can avoid voting for it.
    Last edited by KnightWriter, Jun 27, 2013
  11. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    But that's not realistic, @KnightWriter. As much as I wish we'd have a landslide, we are way too partisan and closely-divided for one of the two parties to completely collapse (and even a 1964/1972/1984-style Democratic landslide wouldn't completely destroy the GOP).

    And if this fails, it will weaken Obama and the Democrats. And who knows when the next opportunity will be. The Republicans already killed Immigration Reform in 2007, and were hurt in 2008 and 2012 by it. Hispanic voters already know where the GOP has blocked this issue in the recent past, they're already voting 70% Democrat.

    As for the Civil Rights era, you know better than that. That was when there were about as many conservatives and liberals in both parties, And the South was still considered solid for the Democrats. The conservative Democrats back then would be Republicans now, and the liberal Republicans then would be Democrats now.

    What is your problem now with the bill the Senate just passed? And of course it won't be a liberal wet dream, just like healthcare wasn't. Even if more Republicans were voted out, their Democratic replacements probably wouldn't be that liberal, they'd be like Pryor. And 14 Republicans in the Senate did vote for it, mostly because 4 Republicans helped write it (with their 4 Democratic counterparts). It is a small step forward for them as a party, but it is a step forward, and you'd be punishing the guys who want to work with Democrats.
    Last edited by Summer Dreamer, Jun 27, 2013
  12. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    =D=
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  13. Juliet316 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2005
    star 7
    More women in poltics being awesome and pwning:

  14. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Meanwhile, in North Carolina, which has the fifth largest unemployment rate in the nation, we're no longer eligible for federal jobless funds thanks to the laws passed by the wastes of human DNA in our General Assembly.

    http://m.washingtonpost.com/busines...a8e3a2-dfdc-11e2-8cf3-35c1113cfcc5_story.html

    As my cousin put it on Facebook, how dare the unemployed in North Carolina not move away or die.

    Beam me up, Scotty. There is no intelligent life in government down here.
  15. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    It wasn't just HW and what he said, but look at what Reagan said: open borders.......wow. If that video isn't a sobering assessment of the modern-day GOP's policy towards immigration, then nothing is.
  16. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    The two men on that stage were President for a combined twelve years, and some would say it was one long presidency. The views expressed there would be disowned in the time it took for something to start trending on Twitter.

    I like that H.W. seizes the issue and turns it all into a positive. This was a time when the hispanic population was far less than it was today, when maybe he could have afforded to be more like many Republicans of today.
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  17. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    The immigration reforms of 1986 are often used by republicans as a example of the failure to follow through on border security........uh no, it was a great success. It allowed great minds and great people to come to this country and start their lives anew. I thought the 80's were this supposedly great decade of growth and opportunity as the GOP often likes to reminisce about. Well, they were and so were the 90's. The 86 reform was success and opened the way for many great people to start businesses and contribute in numerous ways.

    It will be the same with this bill, border security or not.
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  18. Juliet316 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2005
    star 7
    And for all the faults of his Presidency, Bush 43 actually tried to push through meaningful immigration reform, that actually included a path to citizenship, back in the last years of his Presidency. One of the men who blocked that measure? John McCain, who was one of the authors of the immigration reform bill that passed the Senate this week.
  19. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    George W. Bush rode a wave of xenophobia and racism into office whether he was personally for it or not.

    See: the South Carolina primaries and Karl Rove asking if people would still vote for McCain if he fathered a black baby.
  20. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
  21. Juliet316 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2005
    star 7
    Actual quote from Rick Perry re: the Abortion bill filibuster and calling for a second special session to try and ram it through the state legistature.

    "The louder they scream, the more we know that we are getting something done."

    That made my skin crawl.
  22. SoloKnight Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2003
    star 4
    God, Rick Perry pisses me off. He sees angry women and people disenfranchised by their government, BY HIM, and it makes him feel pretty damned good about himself. And this man wants to be president.
  23. Juliet316 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2005
    star 7
    Fortunately even primary voters saw he was unqualfied for the job.

    Edit: Personally I would love the DOJ to investigate the timestamp discrepancy the Texas Republicans tried to pull in order to get the bill passed.
    Last edited by Juliet316, Jun 29, 2013
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  24. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Yet he's still basically unbeatable in Texas. What does that say about that state?
  25. Juliet316 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2005
    star 7
    That Bush picked his successor a little too well.