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Senate The US Politics discussion

Discussion in 'Community' started by Ghost, Dec 6, 2012.

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  1. PCCViking

    PCCViking Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2014

    Hopefully to the Terminator Theme. He can say, "Your employment has been terminated."
     
  2. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    [​IMG]
     
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  3. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    Of course it was. It was superb. If you know anything about the Boland Amendment, you know it was passed post facto, meaning after the fact. The US government had been carrying out operations in Nicaragua for years before Boland was passed. So the operations were already in progress. Boland made it technically illegal to provide military assistance to the Contras, but at the time it was passed, that point was moot, because the Contras were already being directed in military operations against the Sandinistas. What you can't do is set up rebel groups to fight in a proxy war and then pull support for them while they are "in field."

    (Oh wait, nevermind, that was Clinton's strategy in arming the Libyan rebels against Qudaffi, which is why Libya is still in the middle of brutal anarchy. But I digress the point.)

    If Boland had legislated that there be a gradual de-escaltation of the Contras, it would have been a completely different manner. But in honoring the US commitments, the US sold weapons to Iran and Iraq, which kept both of them in check in that region of the world, diverting the resources to the Contras so they could continue to oppose the Soviet puppet government. So yeah, while it was technically illegal, the result was an effective chess move during the cold war.

    Today, it probably wouldn't even register as a scandal. Although back then, it was turned into a video game, so I don't know how serious the issue was viewed then either.
     
  4. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

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    Apr 17, 2006
    Still waiting for that list.
     
  5. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

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    Sep 19, 2000
    If plan A (Clinton) fails, go for B: anything else
     
  6. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    Mr44,
    Congress maybe should have the power to restrain the Executive branch from selling weapons, even if under prior arrangements. The Congress has the power to withhold money and arms to our own armies in the field so I don't see why they shouldn't be able to place similar restraints on arming and assisting foreign fighters.
     
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  7. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2004
    You heard it here folks. Today, arming both sides in a war simultaneously wouldn't even register as a scandal.
     
  8. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002

    Oh sure, they most definitely have the legal right. Putting someone up to fight and then pulling support after they start is just a crappy thing to do, which is why all those involved were "punished," although the punishments were really just slaps on the wrist.
     
  9. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2012
    Speaking as a citizen of a completely different country I can confidently say that my smugness cost HRC naff-all in the US election, and whatever I do about the American electorate being so deplorable is largely irrelevant.

    I could emigrate to the US to add one vote for decency in future elections, but I feel I'd be giving up too much. We have it pretty good in my part of the world compared to you. Sorry if that seems smug and selfish.

    Whatever your solution is, pandering to bigotry must not be part of it. You have to fight the validation of bigotry, or the dying generation will be replaced by new, more dangerous bigots. Trump's base is a lost cause, you need to engage with the third who don't vote, and assume that some of the bandwagoners in the Trump brigade will make the jump.
     
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  10. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    "this smugness" =/= "your smugness"

    Come on man.
     
  11. LostOnHoth

    LostOnHoth Chosen One star 5

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    Feb 15, 2000
    Something is either illegal or it is not. There's no such thing as "technically" illegal. All of the law is a technicality so there's no real distinction between laws on this basis. The term "technicality" was invented by management to make their violations sound warm and fuzzy.
     
  12. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    Since the US is the largest arms exporter in the world, not only wouldn't it be a scandal, the arms sales would probably take place in open bidding.

    Is this just news to you today? If so, I apologize, I should have put up a spoiler alert.
     
  13. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2004
    While most people above the age of 16 eventually come to terms with and accept with a feigned cavalier distance the reality that companies and states profit off of selling arms to whoever is the highest bidder, I would argue that even Ted Bundy would find selling to both sides at once to be devoid of class. So I very much doubt that it wouldn't be a scandal if discovered today.
     
  14. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    The US Politics Thread
    Or: how a conversation about the character of a xenophobe narcissist President-Elect turned into a discussion on the Iran contra affair
     
  15. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    He is an ardent Corbyn supporter, you know...
     
  16. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

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    Apr 17, 2006
    Corbyn killed Rosa Luxemburg
     
  17. LostOnHoth

    LostOnHoth Chosen One star 5

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    Feb 15, 2000
    Don't do meth kids!
     
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  18. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002


    Otherwise known as "Monday."
     
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  19. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

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    Sep 19, 2000
    Eh, Hoth. Have you seen The Empire Strikes Back?
     
  20. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    What's that? Is it any good?
     
  21. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer #1 Sabine Wren Fan star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2013
    Housing and Urban Development? WTH???

    [​IMG]
     
  22. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

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    Sep 19, 2000
    44, Are you not scared he'll do something rash and stupid?
     
  23. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

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    Apr 17, 2006
    "Return of the Jedi is the much much worse alternative to Attack of the Clones" - Mr44, probably
     
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  24. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    As you mentioned, the Boland Amendment was enacted in the middle of ongoing operations. At that point, the Reagan Administration was obliged to cease all operations (pending Congressional Approval) and disclose the operations to the House and Senate Select Intelligence Committees. Not only did the operations continue for some time, but the Administration then lied to the Intelligence Committees.

    In addition, the Iran Arms portion of the scandal also ran afoul of both fiscal law and the Arms Export Control Act.
     
  25. MarcusP2

    MarcusP2 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 10, 2004
    Selling arms to Iran despite denouncing them as a terrorist government that should be under further sanctions would not be a scandal.
     
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