Senate The US Politics discussion

This is the second time in a short while that you've unjustifiably talked down to me. Look back at the post I first responded to and tell me I missed your point.

 

I haven't talked down to you. I merely pointed out discrimination towards immigrant workers by society. Either you're deny its a problem or it doesn't exist.

 

If you think the debate has nothing to do with race, then you're kidding yourself. But my original point, about certain jobs being "below Americans" - still stands. We have a near identical problem in Europe. Race, national origin or religion shouldn't play apart - but it does.

Not everything is about race or nationalism, remember?

 

It has plenty to do with perceived racial or national groupings, but inflaming prejudice is a way to enforce and defend class distinctions, it's the economic system which creates and defines them.

 

Really though there isn't a shortage of net labour in the US or indeed any Western country, rather theres a shift in the market towards lower employment standards native populations often cannot live with and a shift towards employing larger numbers of people on part time contracts.

Excessive immigration for me is much more a symptom than a cause, the cause is the neoliberial mindset reducing legislated working standards and weakening unions and its the vast majority of the population that could likely benefit from a reversal of those. Some degree of inflation is likely of course but for the currently lowest paid this would likely mean a net gain and that indeed that could well be the case much higher up as well.

Its been the failure of the left to offer the above that I think has allowed immigration alone to be pushed so successfully by the right across much of the western world.

 

I know that. Without sounding like a socialist, it kinda proves Marx right. His critique of liberalism is rather sound, in some places.

I just find it funny how criticising American liberalism makes me the Devil over the last few days, yet the opposite happens when I tear into conservatives and label Trump a fascist. Struggle to understand why liberals are so defensive of me pointing out slight criticism.

Even though I disagree with you on a philosophical level on the second to last paragraph (about neoliberalism), someone finally gets the point I've been making over the last few days.

The American Left has failed.

 

You keep missing the entire point.

What that man wants isn't just a revitalized community, he wants a revitalized coal-mining community. No one can fulfill that request and that is the main problem. You can go in there and talk to them and try to sell them on liberal/left wing policies, but if you can't revitalize the coal industry then they are going to tune you out.

It is like this in a lot of small communities in the US that are/were defined by a single industry. There is a big culturally aspect to all of this that you are not grasping.

 

*sighs*

This is again. As I said, the system failed him - i.e the political system. That's why he and others (as I said in the past to J-Rod) have voted for economic suicide. What's so difficult to grasp? As I said above, nobody took issue when I pointed out the flaws of conservatism and the GOP. But, as soon as held a mirror up to the Democrats and liberalism in general, everybody began to freak out...

 

Look, Daniel-- countless Republican voters want to continue white supremacy. They may not call it by that name, but it's white supremacy just the same. That is the fundamental driving force in American politics today, both the push to keep it and the pushback against that (most notably by changing demographics and more opportunities and visibility for people of color). It's not about "economic anxiety." Money does play a role, but it's subordinate to race. "Economic anxiety" is not why Donald Trump is president.

The desire to keep white supremacy is what drove countless people to decide (whether consciously or subconsciously) that sexual assault and open racism (and sexism) were not an obstacle to voting for someone.

Something few people seem to be talking about is that Trump heavily depended not on white working class support, but on the support of wealthier Republicans. In my hometown, the east side is known to be much more affluent, and that's where the Trump voters are concentrated here. Likewise for Scottsdale.

It's about keeping things the way they have been for generations for a lot of voters. Not all of them, but enough to decide the terms of politics today.

 

DanielUK I am not a Democrat or liberal and I generally despise the party. You're still wrong about migrant labor.

And I have pushed back against the labeling of Donald Trump, the GOP, or American conservatives as uniquely "fascist." Maybe you missed that.

 

For DNC Chair, it's going to 2nd ballot.

Perez was one vote shy in the first round.

Buttigieg dropped out minutes before the first vote, didn't endorse.

All the other 2nd-tier canddidates seem to be dropping out and endorsing Ellison.



It was

Perez 213.5
Ellison 200

214.5 needed to win

 

KW - I know. You kept telling me they're racist and you don't want to talk to them. You made it pretty clear the other day.

 

Just to clarify things, as this has gotten drawn out.

Failed who?

How did the political system fail him?

 

DanielUK - you're asking people from whom the fashion is to be labelled progressive, and who voted for someone who knocked Blair off his perch as Thatcher's anointed heir, to accept that there has been a failing that is generally accepted elsewhere. If they can't admit they voted for a Thatcherite and are not, objectively speaking, as progressive as they need to believe to be liked by other people or whatever it is driving this nonsense, they're not going to accept a narrative about economic disenfranchisement that is just about whites. To do that would be to dip toes in the water of race politics in America, which is to say to feed the white guilt machine. The priority becomes, therefore, establishing now Not Racist they are instead of looking at socio-economic indices and saying "yes, we done goofed."

In short, if they think liberalism is left wing and Maggie's reincarnated political self someone to get excited about, they're not really going to have an epiphany at any point soon and will likely take a feeling of being patrionised away rather than the sheer overwhelming frustration.

 

The irony is, Ender Sai, I feel like a Marxist giving a speech at the Tory party conference.

 

I don't think you understand how racism works, though. It's not just conscious thought, or any one person at all. Systemic racism is more what I'm talking about, though racism borne of decades of living and thinking a certain way is part of it too.

How many Trump voters do you think find it unusual or problematic to have mostly or only white people (particularly men) in charge of either a government, business, or any organization?

It's not just about being against people of color. It's also about being primarily for people who look like you, and supporting them even when it may not be in your economic interest to do so.

 

I just accused American society of being racist to migrant workers. Might need a fresh argument.

I'll be waiting.

 

Nah, this isn't about the political system.

The Democratic party for years have advocated for policies that are aimed to help people like him. (Hell, the man is on ACA Black Lung benefits.). He crossed over to Trump because Trump promised to bring back the glory days of coal, there is nothing Democrats can sell to him to combat that.

And I don't care that you criticize the American left, I just think you are dead wrong on this issue.

 

I do love how you use the term American left rather than the more appropriate and universal term "centre right".

Also, in the water video, the point was made about the farmers needing hope and Obama telling them about climate change. Somewhat relevant.

 

Clearly they didn't.

He talked about "a man working all his life, should have all the benefits" after he stopped - because of the labour he gave. That's a very, very left wing argument. So, where were the Democrats? And, yes, it is about the political system because the Left embraced globalisation (they moved to the Right), which has led to widespread disfranchisement in the West among the low skilled white working class. If you're struggling to understand, I can (in all seriousness) resort to Marxism to explain why the entire system has failed.

 

I just wish you were more open to experiencing ANY other views on the planet other than what you locked a preconceived notion of. I think it would do you worlds of good. This is just a random story that I'm using as an example, but I think it perfectly illustrates the point:

Headline- "Standing Rock Protesters Leave Gobs of Trash That Could Threaten the River"

Environmental activists protesting the Dakota Access Pipeline at Standing Rock, North Dakota apparently left behind more than just good vibes when they vacated their campground. A massive cleanup effort is underway to clear the campground of debris and trash left behind by the alleged environmentalists, who reportedly left heaps of abandoned sleeping bags, tents, trash bags, diesel fuel, canned food and other general trash at the site. But here's the real irony: sanitation crews and volunteers have been tasked with cleaning up the area to keep all the junk from washing into the nearby Cannonball River -- the same river the protesters were all up in arms about in the first place.



This is such a perfect social commentary, I can't think of a better one. I'm not linking this situation to your specific argument, KW. But the deep dive is that if you were to ask any of these protestors what the problem was, they would answer in a similar manner to how you did above. It's always someone else who has the problem and only they singly see the truth. It doesn't mean that there isn't a nucleus of a issue deep down, but the solution itself isn't filtered through a single lens. And in fact, loosing sight of what the issue is can end up being worse than the original problem.

 

This is no different to arguing you cannot take all the refugees Germany did without massive downstream implications. People find dignity and purpose in their work. Rightly or wrongly, they do, and saying "well but we give them handouts" strips the dignity entirely.

 

The nominal "left" in general across much of the western world has failed because its obviously shifted significantly to the right on the most fundamental issues , its sold out to the interests of the rich and the powerful and keeps a thin(and ever thinning) mask of PC/indemnity politics to hide this.

The global recession has just thrown this into much sharper relief as there is no longer easy money to boost public spending or indeed cover wealth inequality on a personal level though debt. Funding decisions now are going to be much more a case of weighing relative interests hence the idea of someone making them who isn't a neoliberial is abhorrent to the established order.

When you have a choice between two or more options offering little more than maintaining the status quo its really no supprise the less well off look for another option, if they left don't offer it then the further right will.

 

Who has denied this?