The ULTIMATE Mystery - Can YOU solve it?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by billydeewilliams, May 20, 2002.

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  1. billydeewilliams Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    Okay guys, listen to this, and lets really try and solve this mystery.

    One of the major recurring Themes in the Star Wars Saga is that of identity, or, more specifically, that of dual identity.

    Every major (and minor) twist that has ever occurred in Star Wars has been concerned with this complicated matter.

    Lets look at the facts:

    In ANH we are introduced to the character of Kenobi. At first there is a lot of of confusion as who this character is. We are led to believe his name is ?Ben Kenobi?, and Luke is not sure whether he is actually ?Obi wan Kenobi? of if the two are maybe related. Of course, we eventually find out that Ben Kenobi, is Obi wan kenobi. This is the first time that GL plays with the use of peoples names and hence, their identity.

    Now lets look at Vader. At first, we are led to believe he is a purely evil character, but later on we learn that he is Luke?s father, Anakin Skywalker, fallen jedi and servant to the Emporer. Another switch.

    Now Yoda. When we are first introduced to Yoda in ESB we do not know it is the famed Jedi Master. GL plays with our expectations and we, along with Luke, think that Yoda is someone else. Again, our preconcieved notions are broken when it is revealed that this little green thing with a walking stick is in fact, Yoda.

    Okay, so far so good. Now lets look at Padme. In TPM she is introduced as a handmaiden, a handmaiden who later steps forward and reveals herself to be the queen. Again, a massive switch in identity, and one that had a lot of people fooled.

    Now, onto Count Dooku, who is first presented as a disgruntled Jedi who has left the order, but at the end of the movie is reveled to be Tryannus, apprentice to Sidious.

    And of course finally we have Sidious / Palpatine. But we?ll look at that later on.

    These aren?t the only switches in identity.

    When Luke finds out that Vader is his father, it is for him a fundamental change in identity. It shatters his preconcieved notions about who he is and where he?s come from. It is a switch.

    Look at Leia. Not only does she turn out to be Luke?s brother, thus changing her identity, but she disguises herself as the bounty hunter bousch in ROTJ to infiltrate Jabba?s palce, only to ?reveal? herself to Han and the audience later on, much to everyone?s surprise.

    In fact, people are endlessly dressing up, putting on disguises and changing their identity throught the SW saga. Luke ?reveals? himself to Leia, afer dressing up as a stromtrooper (ANH), Lando dresses up in disguise (ROTJ) and then shows himself to the audience by pulling down his mask, we have a Zan, the assasin in ATOC who changes her identity (she is a changeling), and we have Han dressing up and pretending to be an Imerial General in ROTJ etc etc. Many many disguises and many many changes in identity.

    Clearly then, this is a MAJOR THEME is Star Wars which appears to be very much about peole ?revealing? themselves to others.

    So, lets look at the characters who so far, do not have a dual identity or whose dual identity has yet to be ?revealed?.

    They are:

    1) Qui ? Gon.
    2) Mace Windu
    3) Syfo-Dyas
    4) Darth Maul

    Qui Gon is a pretty major character. It would fit the pattern if he were to undergo a change of identity in Episode III (preferably one that explains why no-one ever mentions him in the OT) or be revealed to us as someone else.

    Darth Maul may seem fairly insignificant compared to the rest of the characters, but he did kill Qui Gon and seeing as Tyrannus has a dual identity (Dooku) AND Vader has one (Anakin), we can assume that Maul, is a significant character and also has a dual identity.

    Now, Syfo-dyas. Is seems a little odd to put this character into the story for no reason. Some have suggested he is Qui ? Gon. I myself, on other threads have suggested he could be Maul.

    So what about Sidious? Well it all comes down to this:

    If you believe Sidious = Palpatine then Sidious CANNOT also be Syfo ? Dyas (I will expain why in a minute)

    If you belive that Palapatine and Sidious are clones / twins / whaterver
  2. sinsation Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2000
    star 1
    Sidious is obviously pulling all the strings.

    He is Syfo-Dias, and probably Palpatine too (but who knows). There may be a theme of duality, but the Emperor is pure evil, and evil has many faces.
  3. Snakeyes31485 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    well thought out but i don't think Mace's second identity will be evil
  4. SaberSlinger Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2001
    star 4
    Great post, billydee.
    I like the idea of using this logic to figure out who ordered the creation of the clones.
    You know, Darth Maul would be a great choice based on this way of thinking, but it's hard to know for sure.
    Maybe the Jedi Syfo-Dias was in line to become Palpy's next apprentice, ordered the clones, and was betrayed because Palpy wanted to protect himself and distance himself from the clones so that when somebody found out about them they couldn't trace the order back to Palpy.

    I think Dooku ordered them though. I just don't think Palpy would have done it personally for fear of revealing his dual identity. This works best in my mind because we know that Dooku must have been Sidious' apprentice when the clone army was ordered because he recruited Jango.


    o]||||{ -------SaberSlinger-------
  5. Sith_Butters Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 1
    Here we go again, will this be the official thread then?
  6. billydeewilliams Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    SAberslinger, 'I like the idea of using this logic to figure out who ordered the creation of the clones. '

    It is the ONLY logic to use. Because GL uses recurring Themes in SW, as with the musical themes that surface and re-surface through out the movies, you can work out the events of Episode III. Just as you could pretty much work out the musical score.

    But i reiterate, Dooku CANNOT have ordered the clones. In the scheme of things it would mean he had been known by three different names: Dooku, Tyrannus, AND Syfo-Dyas (when he adopted the mane). That's more that Two identities. It never happens anywhere else. That's beacuse it is a thematic rule employed by GL. It's everywhere you look and is obeyed everywhere you look. This is no exception.
  7. Sonic_Pumpkins Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    star 2
    Sifo-Dyas = Mace Windu

    IMO, of course. But c'mon...I think Sidious is too obvious. Not to mention, I've felt that Mace was a traiter for a while now.
  8. SaberSlinger Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2001
    star 4
    But if the Jedi Syfo-dias died before the clone army was ordered, then it almost has to be one of the 2 Sith. I know this throws your logic out the window, but who else could it be? I really don't think Qui-Gon would have ordered the creation of a clone army.

    Then again, GL could drop a bomb on us that it was really Qui-Gon and we'd all say "well, it was foreshadowed in what Dooku said to Obi in AOTC about Qui-Gon joining him."

    EDIT - I really don't think Mace is a traitor, but I have no more evidence to prove that than you do that he is a traitor.



    o]||||{ -------SaberSlinger-------
  9. billydeewilliams Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    Everone, listen up.

    This is not jsut a new thread for the endless debating of the Syfo-dyas question. Although you can post ideas on that by all emans.

    It is thread to discuss the issue of IDENTITY in relation to the rest of the movies and to see if we can work out what switches in identity have taken place and what will take place in EP. III.

    But remember, it must conform to the rules i have stated above. This rule of dual identity (no more no less) is inherent in the SW saga, and cannot be broken. One person cannot be three other people. VAder can be Anakin, but he cannot be Threepio too. Get it?
  10. Keggy728 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2002
    Here's what i think... Count Dooku is Sifo-Dyas. The Holonet News is a online newspaper type of thing put out by Lucasfilm which led the events before AOTC. Here is a quote from Volume 54 about Count Dooku:

    "Once a Jedi Master of great repute, Dooku's departure from the Jedi order made newsnet headlines across the galaxy. He is the most recent of the so-called "Lost Twenty," the only Jedi in the history of the order to voluntarily renounce their commissions.

    Citing disillusionment with the Republic and the Council, Dooku left Coruscant for his homeworld of Serenno. There, he took up his title and wealth that was his birthright and disappeared for years."

    Jedi are taught not to live extravagantly, and i'm sure that while being a Jedi, he was not referred to as Count. I believe that his Jedi-name was Sifo-Dyas. it is said that he dissappeared about 10 years before AOTC from the Jedi Order, and this coincides with the order for the clones and tampering of the Jedi Archive.

    I feel that this dooku - sifo-dyas connection is the key to the clone wars, because the cronology links up that sifo meets sidious, is turned, orders the clones, and they work together to escalate this grand plan of theirs for the Clone War.
  11. Senator_Jangi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    Here it is!
    At leat for Qui Gon
    HE ORDERED THE CLONES.

    Look at the facts
    He has Very little or no faith in the Jedi council, therefore prompting him to order clones, he is a powerful Jedi, therefor enabling them to believe he is a representative. Anyway any other thoughts would be appreciated. Especially any connection between him and Jango.
    Anyway, May the force be with you
  12. Ahronxxx Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    If you listen to Jango Fett, he states that he does not know a Sypho Dyas but he was hired by Tyrannus. Jango doesnt seem to know much about the force or anything like that. he just wants to get payed. Sypho Dyas was most likely just a regular jedi whom dukoo/tyranus used the alias of to get order the clones for palpatine. either that or Maul was sypho dyas. just something to think about. in response to those who said you had to disapear to become an apparation later (like the end of ROTJ). well vader never disapeared did he? im pretty sure he didnt.
  13. milkchess Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2002
    wow, that's very interesting b.d.w... great point. somehow i get the feeling that qui-gon was actually bad. and the death of sifo-dyas 10 yrs ago w/qui-gon's death 10 yrs ago?? coinkidink! i agree. you can't have 3 identities. Lucas is definitely following a theme - good/evil,light/dark, etc.
  14. billydeewilliams Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    SaberSlinger, i am working on the assumption (an accurate one i believe)that Syfo-dyas was never 'killed' at all. It is the same lie use by obi Wan to Luke when he says that Vader killed his father. It is true, but only metaphorically. Syfo-dyas fell to the dark side, a source of great shame, embarassment and guilt to the Jedi Order. Thus it is the former name of a jedi before he fell. This is why i think it is Maul. Obi Wan has been lied to, just as Luke was, and irony of irony (and the reasons for all those looks bewtween Yoda and Mace) is that Obi Wan did eventaully kill him in the end, which is why there is confusion over the date.
  15. MoldyBread Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2000
    star 4
    Qui Gon dressed up in farmer's clothes on tatooine. Padme did this too.

    Padme and Anakin dressed up as refugees in AOTC.

    Don't forget 3P0 - he went from naked to clothed (metal).

  16. son_of_the_tear Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 5
    Well, I can't solve the mystery. But Scooby-Doo and the gang can!

    Right, Shaggy?

    :p
  17. MoldyBread Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2000
    star 4
    Sifo-Dyas is Yarael Poof -q-tip head- from TPM.

    He faked his death, orderd the clone army, and is now hiding on Kamino with the similar looking Kaminoans.
  18. billydeewilliams Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    Right Milkchess, that's exactly it. I still can't believe i've just started this thread and i've already got people saying: 'I think Dooku impersonated Syfo-dyas.' Its IMPOSSIBLE THEMATICALLY. What, they think GL is an idiot? He invented the whole dual identity for the characters, it is a rule of two. No character can ever be known by three different names, Simple.

    Dooku has been ELIMINATED from this argument. If you don't agree with the premise of dual identity (and i'd wonder what films you're watching if you don't), then please don't post on this board. Espescially not that Dooku ordered the clones.
  19. billydeewilliams Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    Very nice Mouldy bread!

    Come on, come on, the more the better!
  20. SaberSlinger Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2001
    star 4
    But Maul never was a Jedi.

    I dunno man, I have a really hard time believing it was Maul or Qui-Gon that posed as Syfo-dias. I'm thinking it was just Sidious or possibly that Mace IS a traitor.


    o]||||{ -------SaberSlinger-------
  21. Mr. P FanFic Archive Editor, Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2000
    star 5
    What is interesting to me is that the Kaminoans KNEW that it was Obi-Wan. If Sifo-dyas was really Qui-Gon, then he might have said that his apprentice was Obi-Wan Kenobi and they woul dhave expected Obi-Wan to show up (rather than another jedi).

    --P
  22. Senator_Jangi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    Still like my previous arguement that it was Que Gon who ordered the clones *see reply

    Another change to add to the list is one of the most obvious ones, Han Solo, whogoes from beign a money Hungry Smuggler to a romantic, politically minded good guy.
  23. REBEL_SKUM Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2000
    star 2
    I think you're putting too much weight behind this rule of 2/3 thing, I mean it seemingly works now, but in 3 years you could be proven wrong.... I could just as easily create a rule of women, being that leia and padme never really miss a shot, meaning that women in the sw universe have increased precision, accuracy, and dexterity, but then again that could be proven wrong in 3 years too.


    not to take away from your theory, but you're beeing oftly critical of others views for something that can be proven wrong in a simple line of diologue come 3 years.
  24. MoldyBread Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2000
    star 4
    Jango in AOTC.

    You see the "rocket man" and then are introduced to Jango. Then there is the shot of Boba shutting the door with the armor in it. That could be duel identity too.

  25. billydeewilliams Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    SaberSlinger, Who says Maul was never a jedi. Remeber withoout all the tattoos (which display his ultimate devition to the dark side) he would siliar to the rest of his species (i forget what their called). Perhaps he fell to the dark side and this is why they say Syfo-dyas was 'killed'? Just like Obi Wan with Luke's father did in ANH.

    However, i'm also inclined to think that maybe the character of Syfo-dyas isn't as imporatnt as the character who POSED for him. And i'm leaning and leaning towards the notion that it's MAce also. And this would fit with the Rule of Two identites. It would be the perfect storyline. Hell, if i'm honest, i always suspected Mace was up to something in TPM. Did you see that look he had when Qui -gon told him about Anakin? It was like the look in Bill Gates' eyes when he sees the oppertunity to make some MORE money.
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