The ULTIMATE Mystery - Can YOU solve it?

I think Mace could end up being a dark jedi when all is said and done. Let us not forget the cave in Empire where the darkside is strong, and how Yoda reacts to the cave, not wanting to look in the direction of the cave as well as an almost sad look on his face. Why would some random place on dagobah be so strong with the darkside? I think yoda defeats a dark jedi here and the aura of that dark jedi is left in the cave. Whether it is Mace or Dooku, who knows? But i think it could be mace, which would explain why yoda seems so sad near it, remembering howhe killed an old friend, maybe?

 

I think Darth Sidious....is a Sith Lord who has survived the last thousand years by cloneing himself....I think Sifo Dyas is a Clone of Sidious who is killed by sidious when he needs his other clone palpatine to complete his part of the plan. Note the reason no one recognised them is because of the clone age difference. This is why we see such rapid ageing in palps....and the decay of the emperor

 

Saurion,

Interesting. That is a possibility. I hadn't considered his longevity might have any connection to cloning technology.

There are several discrepancies in the current "obvious" depiction of the Palpatine/Sidious connection:

1. Chancellor Palpatine does not meet the extreme age (1000 years old) requirements of Emperor Palpatine.

2. If Chancellor Palpatine is indeed the Sith Master Emperor Palpatine was in the OT, he would've exuded dark side eminations that would've revealed him to the members of the Jedi council long before AotC. This has not happened. Proximity does have some bearing on the strength of force eminations.

3. Nearly simultaneously appearances of Sidious and Chancellor Palpatine in entirely different places.

4. Lack of immediate common information sharing between Palpatine and Sidious. One has different information and different reactions than the other at any given moment. Although this speaks volumes about duality, it also tends to speak even louder about separate identities -- et.al, two different people who just happen to have similar goals and identical appearances. The fact this "similarity" appears to be in a movie about clones is a rather loud hint that "something is not right here."

5. Lacking any additional information requires more speculation than facts, but the clone theory withstands the rigors of the timeline, and the discrepancies in the current Palpatine/Sidious connection demand a rethinking.

Yuppers, I agree with jedi-wanna-be.

-Undomiel
"Aren't you a little short for a Stormtrooper?" - Leia Organa, Star Wars IV: A New Hope

 

Nice post Undomeil, anyone whose read my thread: Palaptine and Sidious - New Ideas, will knwo why thematically, i give this idea alot of credance.

Here were a few other posts that caught my eye.

First off, JEDITIGGER

'Here's another random thought:

When speaking to Obi-Wan, Lama Su refers to Sifo-Dyas as, "Your Master...".

Now, I know that all ranking Jedi are referred to as Master, and although the Kaminoans do not know Obi-Wan by name, I couldn't help but think that that was terribly interesting. If he were speaking of Yoda, or anyone else, it would've been just "Please inform Master Yoda that we have every confidence that his order will be met on time and in full." There is a definite implication of relationship there, even though Obi-Wan is new to the equation on the Kamino side of things. Were it not for the intimate Master-Padawan nature of the Jedi Order, this might have escaped questioning, but I'm just adding more fuel to the fire!'

JEDITIGGER. I noticed not only this, but also that Obi-Wan referred to Syfo-Dyas' as 'My Master' too.
Mean anything? I'm not sure.

Next up, JERMAINEROGERS

'Im always telling my pal Shawn that Maul's ending was to neat and quick.
Think, MAULS face was burned into our minds...Lucas put his likeness on EVERYTHING. Even on the packaging for the action figures, where Vader's face would usually dominate, there was Maul's.
Then we see the film..and he's barely in it.

I still remember the markings on his face...and it seems like I read somewhere that those markings meant something.'

I'm inclined to agree Jermaine. I have said this time and time again, but no-one has really commented on it yet. Why are those exact face markings replicated on the ceiling of Anakin's bedroom in TPM and on the ceiling of the LArs Homestead in ANH?
I could understand them being a symbol to foresghadow Ani's fall to the darkside, but why Luke? Are they more significant than this? I think so.


Next up, JEDITIGGER again (Keep posting)

'If Mace were the turncoat, (IF, people, if), then that could explain loads.

The maxim is that there can only be two Sith Lords, "a master and an apprentice. No more, no less," but that's true from a certain point of view. There always has to be at least a third, up and coming character to join up with one of the two, existing Sith. This is presumably to align with the current apprentice who is dying to become the master. If the master is aware of the presence of another potential apprentice, then he pits the apprentice and the wannabe against each other, and allows strategic Darwinism to decide matters. The best example of this is in ROTJ when Palpatine has Luke and Vader duke it out, If Vader had won, then it'd be "no harm, no foul," since he was the stronger of the two.

I mention all of this, because if Windu were contemplating throwing his hat in the ring for the Sith Apprentice job, presumably made appealing by dealing with the Kaminoans on behalf of Palpatine, something unexpected happens. Qui-Gon shows up with this angry, little 10 year-old who has the raw potential to be greater than Yoda. That would pose a threat to his bid for a place in the Sith "lowerarchy," prompting him to make the decision to let Anakin bask in his ignorance of all things Jedi, thereby never being a threat.

This works under the assumption that Qui-Gon would follow the orders of the council, but that's a pretty silly conclusion to bank on.
He's never done it before. Why start now? '

Great points jEDITIGGER.

And finally, Artanis_Knarf

'Obi Wan "Its not about the mission its something else, elusive..."

Qui Gon "I don't sense anything..."

The "Phantom Menace"

Maybe Qui Gon was trying to throw off Obi Wan on something he knew.'

Maybe indeed. And interesting that Qui-Gon apparently doesn't sense it.

 

"Look at Leia. Not only does she turn out to be Luke?s brother, thus changing her identity, but she disguises herself as the bounty hunter bousch in ROTJ to infiltrate Jabba?s palce, only to ?reveal? herself to Han and the audience later on, much to everyone?s surprise."

"The reason for this? No?one, I repeat NO-ONE has THREE identities in Star Wars. It doesn?t happen. Star Wars is all about duality (light side / dark side etc) which is why all the characters only ever have two identites."

As I see it thats threee identities. Princess-Bounty Hunter-Lukes Sister (Not brother)

 

And you forgot Chewbacca and Jar Jar in your list of people who does not have double Identity.

 

Did anyone think about Qui-Gon beeing Syfo-Dyas, WITHOUT BEIING a baddie? Very much possible that he felt the trouble in the senate and decided to NOT tell anybody, not even the council about the clones. Later on (after the death of Qui-Gon) Palpatine would have find out about that army and send Jango through Dooku as a clone-template. Possible that Dooku ("I wish Qui-Gon were here") is playing games on Sidious ("Yoda, this is just the beginning, I'm much more powerfull than you think"), I even think that he is the father of Anakin, although Shmi said she didn't know what happened (she felt imbarassed when Qui-Gon asked her about Anakin's father). That's why Dooku didn't kill Anakin (cut arm off, same as Anakin to Luke). Very possible that later on Sidious got much more powerfull and find out about Dooku. It would be ok that way, because Dooku knowing about Mace beeing a trator, he would play a baddie.

Anyway, whatever we think, GL can make it HOW HE WANTS, it's his story and he can invent whatever he wants. He left enough space for several solutions

 

billydee,
Based on your formula, there would not be three identities in the star wars universe.

We all know towards the end Count Dooku is Darth Tyrannus and he was a fallen Jedi and known to the Jedi Council by the former.

And of course, Obi-Wan agrees the existance of Jedi Master Sifo-diyas (which he died 10 years ago)

What if/therefore/certainty:
Count Dooku = Darth Tyrannus
Sifo-diyas = Darth Sidious
Palpatine = clone

How's that for a lame equation?

 

It couldn't have been Qui Gon. Syfo Dyas was a member of the Jedi Council. Qui Gon was too reckless to be considered for the council.

 

Well, that's true, but he could have said he was.....too simple.

 

Grand Moff Tarkin is Anakins father. He is also Luke and Leia's father. Come to think of it, he is also Han Solo's father. I guess everything is kept in the family.

 

OK,

SIDIOUS IS NOT SIFO-DIAS!

For if only one reason, and one reason only,

Sidious NEVER does the dirty work himself, he always sends out his cronnies to do his work.

End of story.

Alright, a thought. In the 5 movies we have so far we have how many Sith Apprentices?

Three.

Now, out of those 3, how many were Ex-Jedi?

TWO. Is it really hard to make that last little step and assume that maybe, just maybe, Maul was in some way an ex-Jedi? I dont think its that hard. Sidious has a thing for Fallen Jedi. The fallen Jedi take out there "REVENGE" on the other Jedi.
What did Maul say to Sidious in TPM.

"At last, we will have our REVENGE."

Might also explain the LOOK that Qui-gon gave Maul right befor Maul killed him. Anybody want to go back and take a look at it. TO me, it looks like Qui-gon ALMOST recognizes him as someone but he cant quite put his finger on it.

And again, i reiterate, GL didnt put Maul in TPM just to have him be the bad guy that the Jedi fight. He's there for a reason. Just as Dooku is there and Vader is there later on.


Alright. Second, Sifo-Dias is not just a NAME dropped on the table to never be discussed ever again in the movies. How many times have we had, in the 5 movies, a name as closely linked to such a big ordeal as Sifo-Dias, to never have it come up again?

Never. Trust me, this name will comeup again. And how are you so sure that Obi-Wan KNOWS Sifo-Dias? We didnt see Sifo-Dias in the TPM did we? Well, he "died" ALMOST 10 years ago. Perhaps Obi-Wan has just HEARD of this Jedi Sifo-Dias, but doesnt know him personally. He just knows the story of him.

And we just cant assume that Sifo-Dias was definatly a Jedi on the COuncil either, because if he was , we have seen so far everyone on the council. Although there are some that were there in TPM that arent there now.

Im confused now. My brain hurts. Let me recollect my thoughts and finish this up after another cup of coffee,

You know i ate drank and dreamed about this thread all day yesterday and last night and this morning. We are on to something i feel.

 

Yeah, and Palpatine is Padme's father.

 

I don't care for this stupid "Only two identitites" rule. It's quite obvious that Dooku used the dead Jedi's name to order the Clones. He had the money and the knowledge. Palpatine could not order the Clones as he could not have gone missing for a day or so without arousing suspicion. The same thing applies to erasing Kamino from the Archives, Palpatine couldn't have done it but Dooku could (and did).

 

well, this thread is for the discussion of dual identity/roles. if you dont agree with it, please dont post here with your disdain for the theory.

Post somewhere else.

Thank you

 

If Dooku in fact was Sifo-Dyas, that will be the first time GL break the rule of duality, and I don't see that happening.

Lucas is obsessed with the themes he uses in his movies. In TPM, the theme is "One"; the chosen one and so on. But the duality theme is still there (the two Sith, Palpatine/Sidious, Amidala/handmaiden). This duality theme certainly seems to be present throughout the whole saga. It would be quite surprising if GL gave it up in the last movie.

Therefore, I don't believe that Dooku was Sifo-Dyas.

 

Yes Yoda_Skywalker, that's exactly it. I guess some people must simply believe GL is making this up as he goes along. Everyone should remember this line (I'm using it in reference to Episode III.)

'Young fool...only now, at the end, do you understand.'

I love that line.

I also want to quote Wewbacca the Wookie here:

'Sifo-Dias is not just a NAME dropped on the table to never be discussed ever again in the movies. How many times have we had, in the 5 movies, a name as closely linked to such a big ordeal as Sifo-Dias, to never have it come up again?

Never. Trust me, this name will comeup again. And how are you so sure that Obi-Wan KNOWS Sifo-Dias? We didnt see Sifo-Dias in the TPM did we? Well, he "died" ALMOST 10 years ago. Perhaps Obi-Wan has just HEARD of this Jedi Sifo-Dias, but doesnt know him personally. He just knows the story of him.'

This is the crux of the matter.

 

And again, just to reiterate the point about Name-dropping, this is from MASON, from my other thread, 'Palpatine and Sidious, new ideas.'

'Here's a thought worth mentioning(if it hasn't been already): When has Lucas tossed out a name to 'us', one that causes a particularly important event, and NOT come back and substantiated that name with a real person, or a reason for it even being mentioned(for that matter)? He hasn't.

For that reason alone, one individual in EpIII will be shown as having at least two names (their duality), with one being Sifo-Dyas. ...and I think we all agree that if this happens, then it will likely be a force using individual.

In the SW universe, I can't remember ONE instance where something was tossed out there, with major implications, just for the heck of it.'

And you know what? He's right.

 

Ok I do not know if this has already been said.. or if I am wrong because this is so obvious... or that its so obvious that no one cares... anyways... obi wan has a converstation with jango fet it goes like this:

Obi wan: Recently..
Jango fet: Possibly..
Obi wan: Then you must know Master sifo-dious..
Jango fet: Master who?..
Obi wan: Sifo-dious, is he not the jedi who hired you for this job?..
Jango fet: Never heard of him..
Obi wan: Really?
Jango fet: I was recuted by a man called Tyrannus on one of the moons of bogton

Tyrannus!@!

ok... now this is dialouge from the end of the movie...
*dooku lands and gets of his ship to meet sidious*

Dooku aka: The force is with us master sidious..
Sidious: Welcome home lord Tyranis.. you have done well...

YES! Tyrannus AGAIN!

which means...
dooku aka Tyrannus ordered the clones? I dunno.. but jenga said he was recuted by Tyrannus meaning i dunno what i'm really meaning heh

maybe i'm trippin, tell me what you guys/girls think...

 

That only means that Dooku aka Tyrannus hired Jango. It does not necessarily mean that Dooku also ordered the clone army. Why would he have three names in one movie; Count Dooku aka Darth Tyrannus aka Master Sifo-Dyas. It simply does not make sense.

 

Ya i'm thinking that was my point.. that although he hired him... by following the rules that you can only have to identities he only hired them.. and that qui-gon was sifo-dious... and the two... qui-gon and dooku... planned the clone army...

 

I thought I would add this to this thread since it is along the same lines concerning the mystery of Sifo-Dyas.

To further give credence to the mystery man Sifo-Dyas, let's think of a similiar example from the OT that we could use to parallel our mystery Jedi.

By the way, before preceding any further; how would our discussions on this subject have been had Lucas kept the name Sido-Dyas??

I think the answer would have been, and was before that this was none other than Sidious(Palpatine). So when Lucas changed the name, he created a totally new person that actually was a Jedi Knight(Master).

Now he is either someone truly significant to the story that we have yet to hear his story. Or he just happened to be an unfortunate Jedi Master that was killed for whatever reason, and his name was used to cover up the work of others doing evil.

I think the major thing that stands out above all else in the mystery of Sifo-Dyas, is the *10* years ago that he was killed.

What is all common so far from the Prequels and this 10 years?

Sifo-Dyas was killed *10* years ago
Qui-Gon was killed *10* years ago
Darth Maul was killed *10* years ago
The clones were ordered/commissioned *10* years ago
Dooku left the Jedi order *10* years ago
Palpatine became Chancellor *10* years ago
The Chosen One, Anakin was found *10* years ago

So if you count, there were *7* major events that occurred *10* years ago that possibly affect the Republic and what is to come.

If Sifo-Dyas is truly someone important to the saga; then he came to be someone weaved into all these events.

Now back to my original thought. Who is an example of someone whose name was brought into the OT, then later explained??


Darth Sin!

 

My current random train of thought is...
Maybe somthing like this happend...
Dooku left the jedi order and teamed up with sidious.. he influenced qui-gon and those two ordered the army.. I'm just not sure if gui-gon was able to tell Dooku or his discovery of anakin or not...

 

Darth Sin

Now back to my original thought. Who is an example of someone whose name was brought into the OT, then later explained??- Not Fair! Please Expand on your theory!

 

Dooku could not have teamed up with Sidious, and then influenced Qui-Gon to order the clone army.

"Always two there are....no more...no less. A master and an apprentice."

Dooku didn't team up with Sidious until after Maul was killed, and that was of course, at the same time Qui-Gon died. IF Qui-Gon and Dooku ordered the clone army in co-operation, they didn't do it under Sith influence.