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The ULTIMATE Mystery - Can YOU solve it?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by billydeewilliams, May 20, 2002.

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  1. YodaSkywalker

    YodaSkywalker Jedi Youngling

    May 20, 2002
    Dooku could not have teamed up with Sidious, and then influenced Qui-Gon to order the clone army.

    "Always two there less. A master and an apprentice."

    Dooku didn't team up with Sidious until after Maul was killed, and that was of course, at the same time Qui-Gon died. IF Qui-Gon and Dooku ordered the clone army in co-operation, they didn't do it under Sith influence.
  2. Darth Sin

    Darth Sin Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Oct 14, 1999
    Okay, I will expand on this theory.

    Who is a person from the OT that closely resembles this mysterious Sifo-Dyas, in that there name comes up in the middle of the saga, and we did not hear of them before.

    The best example I can give is none other than Yoda. Yoda was introduced to us in ESB, the second film.

    Ironically, Dooku parallels Yoda in my opinion for the Prequels. He also appears in the second film. Both Yoda and Dooku's appearance mirror each others, and they both have a major affect on events upon their appearance.

    But the person that "most" resembles our mystery man of Sifo-Dyas is Leia

    In ESB, we did not hear the name Leia, but rather she is referred to as, "There is another", by none other than Yoda. This occurs in ESB.

    Likewise, Sifo-Dyas's name occurs in AOTC, the second film.

    Sifo-Dyas(AOTC) then is a parallel to Leia being the "another"(ESB)!

    So if this holds true, and Sifo-Dyas is truly someone important, then his revelation will take place in EP III, just as Leia's was in ROTJ. ;)

    Darth Sin! :cool:

  3. seantree

    seantree Jedi Youngling

    May 14, 2002
    i've been reading this topic for a while and i'm posting under my fiance's account that we share since i don't post often. please don't be to harsh on me here but i have a thought.

    could sifo dyas be darth rage?
    this was taken from the supershadow site "Who is Darth Rage?
    Darth Rage became Darth Sidious' new apprentice after Darth Maul died in Episode 1. Darth Rage was eventually killed in a light saber duel with Jedi Master Plo Koon" the site is

    my only reason for posting this is because i haven't read anything in this thread about darth rage as of yet. i really do enjoy the theories posted here and mace or qui gon would be my two choices for who sifo is because of the wonderful arguements here (they've been great influences.)

    anyway, don't be too harsh on me ok :)
  4. JackGreen

    JackGreen Jedi Youngling star 1

    May 16, 2002
    Darth Rage? What the...?
  5. Wewbacca_the_chookie

    Wewbacca_the_chookie Jedi Youngling star 1

    Oct 19, 2001
    please do not post any information that is not taken DIRECTLY from the movies. That means NOTHING from the expamded universe. We are strictly going from CANON Only, meaning, if it AINT in the movie, it AINT canon.
  6. Wewbacca_the_chookie

    Wewbacca_the_chookie Jedi Youngling star 1

    Oct 19, 2001
    But the person that "most" resembles our mystery man of Sifo-Dyas is Leia

    In ESB, we did not hear the name Leia, but rather she is referred to as, "There is another", by none other than Yoda. This occurs in ESB.

    Likewise, Sifo-Dyas's name occurs in AOTC, the second film.

    Sifo-Dyas(AOTC) then is a parallel to Leia being the "another"(ESB)!

    So if this holds true, and Sifo-Dyas is truly someone important, then his revelation will take place in EP III, just as Leia's was in ROTJ.


    If we were at the time to watch ESB in the theater without knowing what happens in ROTj, we would all be like, ANOTHER!?! OMG! Who can they be talking about. Its got to be somebody new, thet are going to introduce a new character to kill Vader and The emperor if Luke fails. Then we find out in a very SIMPLE way what was meant by the name: Another. Leia.

    So , if this holds true... Leia was a major character in ANH. Therefore Sifo-Dias would have to be a major player in TPM. Not someone new that we'll learn about. Sifo-Dias' ALTERNATE identity or DUAL role has already appeared in TPM.

    Now, with this in mind think back to the LOOK that Yoda had with Mace after Obi-Wan mentioned Sifo-Dias. Perhaps Qui-Gon went by the name Sifo-DIas at one point. (Just clear your mind like Yoda said) When Obi-Wan mentions the Name Sifo-dias, Yoda immediatly realizes what's going on and knows That Sifo-Dias and Qui-Gon are one in the same. Now think of the Look Mace shares. ALmost like, WTF!?! Like as to say Why would Qui-GOn/Sifo-Dias be mixed up with this?

    Im not sure yet about all this, but its starting to make a TINY bit more sense.

  7. seantree

    seantree Jedi Youngling

    May 14, 2002
    actually wewbacca, i haven't read eu so i didn't know that was from eu :) i had read it on the supershawdow site and i suppose since i read about the whole "after darth maul is killed in e1" bit i just thought maybe it was of some relevance to the mystery. and since supershadow seems to be a reliable source, i thought maybe it would interest some. sorry :)
  8. RiggsWolfe

    RiggsWolfe Jedi Youngling star 2

    Mar 3, 2002
    you know, somehting just occured to me...on the whole duality thing, I really think Leah breaks this whole theory....

    She is a rebel leader. Identity one.
    She is an Imperial senator for a time. Identity two. This btw, parallels the Palpatine/Sidious dual identity if you think about it.

    But she is also the "other", Luke's sister. The other hope. Identity three. Am I missing something?
  9. Only_2

    Only_2 Jedi Youngling star 3

    May 21, 2002
    Here's an idea...

    What if, Dooku is Sifo-dyas? plain and simple. What if that was his jedi name and when he left the order he had to renounce his Jedi title, thus becoming Count Dooku?

    Ben lied to Luke about Anakin. "From a certain point of view..." Anakin was killed by Vader.

    Mace and Yoda lied to Obi-wan about Sifo-Dyas. "From a certain point of view..." Sifo-Dyas was killed by Count Dooku.

    This makes sense if Obi-wan recognizes the name but doesn't know him, because when Sifo-Dyas dies, Obi-Wan is a padawan under Qui-Gon.

    Kinda like I said yesterday, the jedi are like priests, they pretend the problem is solved by hiding it and lying about it....
  10. Wewbacca_the_chookie

    Wewbacca_the_chookie Jedi Youngling star 1

    Oct 19, 2001
    You know...i just rewatched the scene again when Obi-wan reports to Yoda and Mace.

    Here are the EXACT words. And Read THEM CAREFULLY and see if you pick up the same thing.

    "They say Master Sifo-Dias placed an order for a Clone Army at the request of the Senate almost 10 years ago...I was under the impression that he was killed before that. Did the Council ever authorize the creation of a Clone Army?"

    Obi-wan says he "was under the IMPRESSION" that Sifo-Dias was killed "BEFORE THAT."

    Before WHAT? Before the Request for the Army was made? That cant be. That means they (The Council) would have had to known beforehand about the clone army and the request. Thats why Obi-Wan asks if the COUNCIL ever approved of the creation of a clone army. No, the Council never approved of the creation of the Clone Army.

    So, who else could request it? The Senate.
    But, If the Request was made that the Army was for the SENATE, Why would they need the Approval of they Council?

    We know Qui-gon defied the council on numerous occasions. Perhaps he went directly to the Senate and then from there to the....



    Think about it.

    1)AOTC takes place TEN YEARS after TPM.
    2)That means Qui-GOn has been dead TEN YEARS.
    3)The Request for the Creatoin of the CLone Army was made ALMOST TEN YEARS AGO. which means it hasnt been 10 years yet.
    4)Sifo-Dias was "KILLED" ALMOST TEN years ago. Which means not quite 10 years yet.
    5)Qui-Gon was killed TEN years ago, not ALMOST 10 years ago.
    6)Darth Maul was killed TEN years ago, not ALMOST 10 years ago.

    The opening crawl for the movie states:

    "Senator Amidala is returning to the Galactic Senate to vote on the critcal issue of creating an ARMY OF THE REPUBLIC to assist the overwhelmed Jedi..."

    The Jedi are overwhelmed. They know the Sith are back. They are losing Control. They need help policing the Galaxy. THEY NEED HELP! But Senetor Amidala and Others would NEVER ALLOW and ARMY to be created, it would split the Republic. Palpatine already wants control. He either goes to the Jedi and suggests they need help or Visa Versa. Or maybe only Mace who know they can look to Palps or the Senate for help, approach and suggest a clone army. He says yes, but they all know itll never pass the senate or the council. Mace decides to Visit the Cloners and uses the Name Sifo-Dias and requests the clones be made for the reuplic. He then comes back and erases the archives and then a story is made about Sifo-Dias and that he was killed.

    Im trying here folks, my mind is racing 100mph.

    Dooku has left and Mace and Dooku are "old friends". Mace still needs a host for the clones, so he tells Dooku of his plans, not knowing that Dooku is now in cahoots with Sidious. Which doesnt matter cause Dooku is really in it for himself too. Hes really good in his heart, but he needs Sidious to get his way.

    Dooku hires Jango Fett. Mace knows who Jango Fett is. He knows hes dangerous. WHen Mace arrives at the arena he Holds his Saber to Jango's neck. Jango looks suprised at first. Then Jango goes after him like, "you son of a @%$#^!" friggin threatening me, ill show you. Thats why Mace dispatches Jango so quickly, and when he does Dooku is Shocked that Mace would kill him even though They were all kinda working together. Then Mace shoots the look to Dooku and then Down to Dead Jango. Mace is really good at heart too, he just knows teh Jedi need help, so he did what he had to do. He doesnt know Dooku is a sith lord.

    Anyways, back in time, Obi-wan finds out about teh name Sifo-Dias, Yoda hears it and looks at Mace and knows something aint right. Either he knows what up or doesnt and Then Maces look is like i said Before, either "What the heck are you looking at me for" or "what? Who me?"

    Ive run out of steam, i know this probably has holes so please exploit them or fill them in. Am i totally off my rocker here?

  11. Chris1022

    Chris1022 Jedi Youngling

    May 22, 2002
    awesome thread here billydeewilliams, it made me register :)
    i'm still writing out my whole take on this theory, but i just wanted to mention something in regards to this:
    I still remember the markings on his face...and it seems like I read somewhere that those markings meant something.'

    I'm inclined to agree Jermaine. I have said this time and time again, but no-one has really commented on it yet. Why are those exact face markings replicated on the ceiling of Anakin's bedroom in TPM and on the ceiling of the LArs Homestead in ANH?
    I could understand them being a symbol to foresghadow Ani's fall to the darkside, but why Luke? Are they more significant than this? I think so.

    I'm sure you all noticed, because it was much more obvious this time, those marking are also on the homestead in AOTC, in yellow/orange, not red like in TPM.

    more to come later...
  12. JediNoosh

    JediNoosh Jedi Youngling

    May 22, 2002
    While trying to figure out the motivation for the sith, we should keep in mind that they are prompted mainly by greed. That is why Dooku at one point tries to recruit Obi Wan for his own cause of trying to overthrow Darth Siddius. They all have delusions of grandeur. Really, they all want to be all-powerful. That's why when Anakin tells Amidala he wants to be the most powerful jedi ever, that's when the darth vader music starts to come up. that's a sign of the dark side. all the jedi are tempted by the dark side, but as quaigon said, your focus determines your reality. and obi wan said, you're focusing on the negative anakin, be mindful of your thoughts.....
  13. president_kang

    president_kang Jedi Youngling star 1

    May 21, 2002
    I think I've read just about every post on this subject, and I can't believe that no one has mentioned these things about Mace Windu.

    1. When the Jedi Council is meeting with Palpatine in the first scene, Mace brings up that there are not enough Jedi to protect the Republic in a civil war.

    2. Just after this, when the Loyalist contigent arrives with Amadala, you can hear everyone greeting each other, yet the camera isn't on Yoda and the contingent, its on Mace, who has a very heavy look on his face.

    3. This has been menitoned, but it appears that Yoda is speaking to Mace when he talks about arrogance of Jedi being a problem with the old as well.

    4. Mace doesn't kill Jango when he has the oppurtunity to do so the first time. Not killing Dooku could be attributed to the respect and friendship they once had for each other, but why not kill Jango?

    If Mace is Sifo Dyas and did order the clone army, I don't think he did so out of trying to become a Sith or following the Dark Side. I think he did so in misguided judgement, out of being "too sure of himself" to quote Yoda, as many of the Jedi are becoming, as Qui Gon was in Episode I. This a flaw the eventually is exposed by Palpatine and leads to the end of the order.
  14. jeditigger

    jeditigger Jedi Youngling

    May 21, 2002
    Wewbacca- I agree with you completely. I believe that Qui-Gon's impulsivity and Dooku's cashflow are an awfully-attracting match. But what are the chances (without either being implicated as a once and future Sith Lord) that Mace Windu and Qui-Gon were responsible for the decision to order the clone army with Dooku's financing the whole deal?

    Remember, Qui-Gon was passed up for a seat on the Jedi Council numerous times. Lama Su asks Obi-Wan, "[Sifo-Dyas is] still a leading member of the Jedi Council, is he not?" If Qui-Gon, Mace, and Dooku had joined forces, then there would be the apprearance of adequate complicity from the Jedi Order to authorize the process.

    Windu is the senior member of the JC; Dooku is a former apprentice to Yoda, has some of the biggest pockets in the galaxy, and Qui-Gon's former master. If, by the guise of Sifo-Dyas, (rightful and deserving iun his own mind) member of the JC, Qui-Gon places the order for the army with Mace Windu's blessing and Dooku's credit card, then the Kaminoans would never suspect that anything was afoot.
  15. markdil

    markdil Jedi Youngling star 2

    May 17, 2002
    I don't think Mace ordered the clones, but I think you are dead on that his character is representative of the flaws in the Jedi order, which leads to their destruction.

    Oh, and I don't think his not killing Jango at first was a mistake. His lightsaber had more important matters to attend to! (Blocking the blasts from the super battle droids that are suddenly behind him)

    One of the best lines of the movie was, "This party's over!" Totally Star Wars and totally Samuel Jackson at the same time.

    EDIT: Regarding Sifo-dyas and the clones... Obviously I don't think this is a mystery that we have enough information to solve. Everything is just speculation at this point. I'm going to keep my mind open to possibilities so I'm not disappointed when the truth is revealed in Ep3. I think thats the problem with all these theories is that people end up liking the movie less if their theories don't come true. They say, "Well it SHOULD have happened this way..." No, thats just your opinion. Just make sure you're clear on the facts, and keep your mind open to the possibilities when new things are revealed later on. You'll have a lot more fun that way. :D
  16. parchfan3

    parchfan3 Jedi Youngling

    May 22, 2002
    In the illustrated guide to AOTC the Mace Windu page says that his Jedi fighting style is (I'm paraphrasing) "diffuicult for most Jedi because it's dangerously close to the dark side". Mace will turn.
  17. parchfan3

    parchfan3 Jedi Youngling

    May 22, 2002
    Also, there's been a lot of discussion about the look shared between Yoda and Palpatine and the look shared between Yoda and Mace after Obi reports about Sifo ordering clones. Could Yoda's look toward Mace be one of suspicion? Mace sounds a little defensive/phony when he swears one could have ordered the clones. But Mace fights so valiantly on Genosis...
  18. parchfan3

    parchfan3 Jedi Youngling

    May 22, 2002
    Also...there has been a lot of talk about the suspicious look Yoda give Palpy. But what about the look he gives Mace while Obi is reporting about the clones. Could he have suspicion towards Mace? Also Mace's response that no one could have ordered the clones seems a little defensive/phony/ deceptive. But Mace fought so valiantly on Genosis...
  19. Disco_Dooku

    Disco_Dooku Jedi Youngling star 2

    May 1, 2002
    I like your Leia tie-in Darth_Sin. Narrows it down to 3 characters from TPM:
    Qui Gon

    I had another thought about Mace being the one who "impersonates" Sifo-Dyas on Kamino.

    A quote someone just put up made me think this way.

    Mace brings up that there are not enough Jedi to protect the Republic in a civil war. And that they are keepers of the peace not soldiers.

    Now, if Yoda can see some events in the future, why couldn't Mace as well? Maybe he realizes that through a vision or whatever that the Jedi alone will not be able to defeat the Sith but need allies or an army to support them and then secretly, behind the JC's back (with possibly Yoda knowing, ie "the look"), commissions the clones to be created. He could have had Dooku help him with this but didn't know that Dooku was working for Sidious.

    Mace doesn't do this in a bad way, he just wanted to have an "ace in the hole" when it was time to go up against the Sith. He just trusted the wrong Jedi, Dooku, to help him and was double-crossed.

    Any thoughts?
  20. willy4pres

    willy4pres Jedi Youngling

    Mar 26, 2002
    1st post here.

    I think some are forgeting how significant the "10 years ago", "nearly 10 years ago" timetable is, concerning Qui-Gon possibly being involved in the ordering of the clones.

    I have seen the movie 5 times so for, so forgive me if I missed something, but it seems to me that the first clones were most likely ordered "nearly" 10 years ago, after the whole "Phantom Menace" thing took place. So that excludes at least one, Qui-Gon, since he was already dead by then.

    The only people remaining that would have any interest in ordering a clone army, assuming that is was a Jedi, or someone that would pose as one, is:


    I have no evidence but I really think that Palpatine did not order the clones, just because it's to obviouse. Pluse why would he expose himself at this point when he could have easily manipulated someone into doing this job for him.

    Dooku is actually the most obvious of the three, considering that we know that he goes by the name of Tyranous now, and Jango said he was hired by someone named Tyranous to serve as the genetic father for the clone army. But again it's to obviouse.

    Mace, assuming that George want's to throw in a twist for the next movie, Mace's charecter is as good as any. We know that he's concerned about the current situation of the Jedi being overwhelmed dealing with all the crap that's going on all over the galaxy, maybe he thought this would be a good way to bail the Jedi out, and help keep the Republic intact. But where would he get the money?

    Maybe him, Dooku, and Jango (hired by Dooku), cooked up the whole plan to try and fix the republic's problems, without having to wait forever for the Senate to decide the matter. That would explain the look that Mace and Dooku exchange when Mace kills Jango (that little look is important, we just don't know why yet).

    Well hell, I forgot about that Syfo-dyas name, maybe he's just a Jedi that was killed at a very convinient time, then the name was used to order the clones so as nobody could be blamed if it all fell apart, which it did.

  21. Bohicas

    Bohicas Jedi Youngling star 1

    Jul 7, 2001
    Then what about when Obi-Wan says that Sifo-Dyas died 10 years ago and both Yoda and Mace agree. There is no way that Dooku could be both else they would've known by his face. It can't be Sidious/Palpatine or whatever you wish to believe as how can he be a jedi and then a chancellor.

    If you look at the timetales it says that Sidious impersonated Sifo-Dyas and then killed him. As to why Sifo-Dyas and not some other, then maybe Sifo-Dyas was a possibly the Lost 21st.

    And as to people thinking Sidious isn't Palpatine, its a nice idea, but at least one thing other than Anakin going to the dark side has to be simple. Greek Tragedy never had a twist. You always knew what was going to happen. Plus if you read the back of the TPM video cover it tells you that the emporer is an ambitious senator.
  22. YodaSkywalker

    YodaSkywalker Jedi Youngling

    May 20, 2002
    The more we discuss the character of Mace Windu, the more I become certain that Ep.III will change our view of the character even more than Ep.II did.

    Mace seems to be a very loyal Jedi, always thinking in the best of the Republic and the Jedi order. Perhaps he is a bit too loyal. He is certainly very concerned that the Jedi won't be able to ensure peace in the galaxy. What is this friendship with Count Dooku all about? The look he shares with Yoda? Or the look he gives Jango before he kills him? Indeed, there are many suspicious looks.

    A central character like Mace Windu is almost bound to have a duality in the last chapter of the saga. All the leads are making me believe more and more that Mace could be the mysterious Sifo-Dyas. Anyway, he is a character to watch out for.
  23. willy4pres

    willy4pres Jedi Youngling

    Mar 26, 2002
    Bohicas, I think Obi-Wan says something to the extent that the Kaminoans told him the Clones were ordered around 10 years ago by Master Syfo-Dyas, but that he was under the impression Syfo-Dyas died before that.

    And im not sure what you mean about the Kaminoans knowing Dooku's face? They didn't see him in AOTC, so why is that an issue now?

    I agree, it does seem that Sideous (spell) ordered the clones, but I really cant see George doing something so obviouse at this point. IMHO
  24. Mason

    Mason Jedi Youngling star 1

    Mar 21, 2002
    Would it even be REMOTELY possible for Sifo-Dyas to have been 'killed' and to have become Sidous in the same manner as Anakin/Vader? If this is the case, and Palpatine turns out to be a seperate person(perhaps a clone) would that likely affect the story? Just a thought.

    We all have thought that the Kaminoans may be 'mispronouncing' Sidious' name, but perhaps they got the name right, and the person....except the person converts to the Dark side...that might explain quite a bit.....
  25. willy4pres

    willy4pres Jedi Youngling

    Mar 26, 2002
    Im positive Syfo-Dyas was a real person, but I doubt that he was the one who actually ordered the clones. It was most likely another person impersonating him.

    Maybe were all just looking to much into this, and Dooku ordered the clones at the insistence of Sidious.

    But what's with all of the suspician around Mace, I really feel that George is up to something extra with his charecter.

    I feel more comfortable with Mace, working with Dooku, later betrayed by Dooku. And then Palpantine manipulating in the background as usual.
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