The ULTIMATE Mystery - Can YOU solve it?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by billydeewilliams, May 20, 2002.

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  1. djangofett Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    I'm going to join the growing chorus of voices suggesting that something's not quite right with Qui-Gon.

    This isn't a fully-developed explanation, but keep in mind that Qui-Gon didn't vanish when he died. Neither did Darth Maul, or Anakin/Vader. Obi-Wan and Yoda both did. When asked about this after TPM, Lucas indicated that it would be addressed in subsequent films at some point.

    Also, we now know that Qui-Gon was Dooku's apprentice. Doesn't prove anything, but still...

    Finally, Qui-Gon was totally gung-ho about Anakin being trained as a Jedi, something disagreed with by the Council, and especially by Yoda and Obi-Wan (who ultimately relented, but possibly only to keep his word to Qui-Gon).

    Also, Qui-Gon spoke about Anakin bringing "balance" to the Force. Doesn't mean he would necessarily be the GOOD side of the equation.

    Could also explain why Obi-Wan never mentionned Qui-Gon to Luke (I mean, beyond the likely fact that Lucas hadn't written his character yet).
  2. Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Simply because Obi-Wan said that Sifo-Dyas died about ten years before makes me believe that his death was surrounded by mysterious circumstances. To me, it was far too much of a coincidence that 1)Dooku left about 10 years before 2)Sifo-Dyas left about ten years before. If Sifo-Dyas died 50 years before then I could say that the sith impersonated him after his natural/uncircumstancial death. However I think that the Dooku/Sifo-Dyas timeframe was put in the movie to allow for Dooku to kill Sifo-Dyas. Its not as simple as impersonating him.
    Also, I think that this thread has severely deviated from its original intent. Duality and Theme is the intent here. There are other threads for SD, so lets try to steer it back huh.
  3. YodaSkywalker Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    GL is a man with a plan. He insists that he wrote the entire story before making ANH, that he at least wrote the general plot.

    As to the fact that Qui-Gon does not disappear, that can mean two things. Either disappearing is normal for a jedi when he dies, and Qui-Gon not vanishing is abnormal. OR vanishing is abnormal, and Obi-Wan and Yoda where the only ones - or some of the only ones - who did this.

    Both possibilities have been suggested earlier, and we have never quite gotten clarity in this matter. The answer to our mystery could perhaps be a little clearer to us if we knew which of the possibilites is true.
  4. willy4pres Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2002
    I think the whole duality theory is pretty much a bust, and the subject did only talk about "The Ultimate Mystery", not "Duality, but nothing else". That was just the topic starters theory, it doesn't create a rule

    I think you can relax the whole off-topic thing, unless your a Mod.

    Why couldn't Syfo-Dyas die, and then the next day Mace or Dooku impursinate him, we deal in hours and days, not complete years.
  5. Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Hey willy

    If you read any of the posts, or even the original post, Billy Dee intended it to be that discussion. The discussions now should be in different forums.

    Im not saying that it couldnt happen like that, im simply stating that it seems too odd to have that type of a coincidence. They couldve used the name of any dead Jedi. It would have made no difference to the Kaminoans cause they are in the dark anyway. Why did they use the name of one that died right around the time that all this stuff started to happen.

    BTW, as quoted in the movie SD was "killed"
  6. willy4pres Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2002
    YodaSkywalker, I think the Novel alludes to the fact that Yoda is not aware that any jedi can become one with the force, and exist in spirit form after there death. I think it's hinting that Qui-Gon may be the first, and that Yoda and Obi-Wan learn after him. But maybe Qui-Gon didn't have the whole puzzle figured out, hence he doesn't appear in spirit form, and doesn't dissapear, just his voice remains, unlike Yoda and Obi-Wan, who actually dissapear, and then appear in spirit form.

    Or something like that, it started out pretty clear in my brain.
  7. willy4pres Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2002
    Hey Darth, I understand what BillyDee was getting at, and some of the other's that posted after him, but I think about 90% of the people that have posted since him have pretty much decided that his theory is a bust. It doesn't really work, no big deal.

    Now why dont you go play with the kids in that "Blue Yoda" thread, big people are talking now.
  8. Artanis_Knarf Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2002
    star 1
    Can someone please explain what:

    "How do you know when you've gone too far?"

    Referring to Mace in the Choices trailer....

    What does this mean, other than he's responsible for the Army's creation?
  9. YodaSkywalker Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    willy4pres, Clear in your brain, not always clear in your fingers. Be mindful of your thoughts, betray you, they can. :cool:

    Anyway, I agree with your ideas.
  10. Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    I would if some of the "big" people here, who shall remain nameless, showed any intelligence whatsoever.
  11. willy4pres Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2002
    Darth, relax, dont go picking out your gun to make all the people who pick on you pay.

    Also, the timing of Sydo-Dyas being "Killed" is perfect, then he can be blamed for ordering the clones, not if he was killed more then ten years ago, which then he couldn't be blamed.
  12. Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Also, if you can understand, this stuff is being discussed elsewhere. That "elsewhere" is somewere that is more productive.
  13. jeditigger Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    I would almost be bold enough to say that the Chancellor's involvement is almost a foregone conclusion for the simple fact that he accepts delivery of the clone army with no hesitation whatsoever.

    I realize that that's a big DUH!, but I think that it speaks to Palpatine and Sidious being the same person and not clones of each other more than anything. Yes, the Emperor of the EU is a touch preoccupied with the whole cloning thing as is evidenced ad nauseum, but at the end of AOTC he stands there on the balcony overlooking the Clonetroopers like a parent whose kid's the star in the school play. The end of the movie matches exactly with the mental image he has had for years, and the Republic's steady slide into an Imperial state couldn't make him happier.

    As I read on another board, the purpose of the clones is to "defend" the Republic, certainly, but there's also a duality of the Army, itself. (How's that for dragging this back on topic?)

    Yes, the clones are to destroy the Separatists. Yes, the army is to defend the Republic/Empire from future aggressors.
    The end in mind that Palpatine begins with, however, when he and Mas Amedda start to angle the entire government toward
    re-armament is to place his true enemy between the pincers of the two factions he controls.

    He already has the Separatists (perceived by the gen pop as a threat to peace) in pocket through the charade that Dooku is in league with them, and that Darth Sidious is their common enemy. To strike back against the Republic is to lash out at Sidious. this is why the Trade Federation is on board. (Padme's head on Gunray's desk is a so-called perk).

    Once the delivery of the Clone army is taken, and they rout the combined droid armies of the Separatists, Palpatine is able to see the formidable killing machine that will be able to eliminate the TF and with it, any implicating ties to the events of the Naboo blockade debacle.

    As evidenced in the movie's end, though, right in the middle, are the poor Jedi. Quite literally. Their tendency to want to problem-solve is more of a liability than a selling point in this moment of history of the Jedi.

    Losing the TF is a bonus, but when you're a Sith Lord with an army of 1.2 million+ troops, pretty much anything you darn well please is within your grasp, so long as the Jedi are eliminated....

  14. willy4pres Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2002
    JediTigger, well said. Im positive your correct, Sideous and Dooku are behind it all. I think allot of us are looking into this to deeply, but Mace does seem suspicious to allot of us. What do you think about him?
  15. jeditigger Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    The double-edge regarding the clones is that while they are pitched as being the protectors of freedom and unity for the republic, the real intention is to eliminate "the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy," our boys (and girls) in brown.
  16. willy4pres Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2002
    Maybe I was just hoping that the whole plan went a little deeper, and involved someone that we thought was one of the good guys.

    Guess we wont know until 2005.

    Im out, off work now, time to see Star Wars again, draging my wife this time.
  17. darthnoodle Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    billydee, you post great threads.

    if we're to follow through your logic, darth maul COULD NOT have been a former jedi. First of all, he would have been part of the lost 20, making it the lost 21. he would have had a former name, most likely not syfo-dyas, then darth maul.

    then again, perhaps his original name was syfo-dyas. and then obi-wan killed the first sith in 1000 years, and a fellow jedi. it still doesn't explain why he isn't a member of the lost 20.

    maybe the big twist in ep3 is that sidious is palpatine. remember, at the point ep3 takes place NO ONE knows what happens in ep 4 5 6, so we don't know he becomes the ulitmate evil in the galaxy.

    anyway, it's all very confusing to all of us, except one GL, and maybe, but doubtfully rick mccallum.
  18. Darth_Ozzy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 4
    WIlly, how can you even think that the duality thing is a bust, everything(as was explained very early on in the post) revolves around duality.
  19. jeditigger Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    aw heck, willy... there you go... Oh well, here's a bit I'd posted last night @ pg.15

    "Mace is also the first one to throw in the towel, so to speak, regarding the Jedi's diminished ability to use the Force. Yoda isn't so quick to agree, merely stating that the Dark Side clouds everything. Windu's dabbling with The DS while having such a prominent position on the Council could possibly be part of the problem with the Force."

    I have to follow up on what someone said today about the possibility that the clones give some sort of hollow sensations in the force. Yeah, it's EU, but at the same time, it seems to make sense. It would have to depend entirely on how force-sensitive the person being cloned is, which no one really knows as far as Jango is concerned, but the premise itself seems to have some merit. I suppose the acid test may very well come in Ep.III when the Jedi start to fight back against the clonetroopers. We'll find out whether or not the Jedi can sense them. They don't really have any motivation to stretch out with their feelings and get a reading on them in AOTC, since they're on the same side.

    I find the fact that the clones are the good guys for now to have been a tremendous surprise in this film, and a welcome twist!
  20. Darth_Ozzy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 4
    I know this topic is over pondered. But here is my take.
    Why sidious could be palpatine and still maintain the rule of duality.

    While i was originally of the belief that palpatine and sidious were not the same person, partially due to the fact that i could find no sound evidence to prove otherwise, i believe i have come up with a way for palpatine to be sidious!

    Palpatine is the emperor, we know this, and most would say, then he cant be sidious due to the rule of duality. Well, not quite. the title emperor is just that, a title. supreme chancellor palpatine becomes Emperor palpatine, who is Darth sidious, so that maintains the rule of two.
  21. jeditigger Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    darthnoodle, I really hope that that isn't the "shocker," because we pretty much know that. More than that, GL knows that we know.
  22. jeditigger Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    Ozzy, I concur completely. I haven't figured out why some folks have had such a hard time wrapping thrie minds around the duality concept. They must unlearn what they have learned.

    Billy Dee's done a darn good job with this. I hadn't even thought of the widespread occurrences of the two-roles concept until I read this yesterday.
  23. Obi-Will_Kenobi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2001
    Wow this thread is really moving! On page 3 I posted that I believe Syfo-Dias is Qui-Gon. I am still fairly certain of this, but I am really starting to believe the idea that Syfo is Mace. The reason for this is the Choices trailer. If you guys haven't seen this trailer or don't remember, I suggest you watch it before you comment on this thread. Here is the exact scene:

    Mace is sitting down thinking: The following text pops up on the screen.

    "How do you know when you have gone too far?"

    What does this mean? I can't think of anything in AOTC that Mace did that he would regret. hmmm.

    This is an official LucasFilms trailer that was realeased on the DVD site. I really think this must have some meaning. Personally I would like for us to get to the bottom of this trailer. Lucas wouldn't just put this in the trailer for the hell of it. Would he? Perhaps you think he would, but I don't. Let me know what you guys think.

    - OWK
  24. Joe-bi-Wan Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    I could be wrong, but I believe there was a Star Wars action figure that said "Emperor Palpatine" on the package. If Lucas has anything to do with OKing those figures, it would make sense they are one in the same. It could have been a mistake of course
  25. AgonyEngine Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2001
    star 4
    Get ready for this...

    There IS no duality issue here. Sure there is duality in the Star Wars saga; however, it's a mistake to try to attempt to link this concept with every charactor within. Qui-Gon is an easy charactor to understand; he wears his heart on his sleave, BUT is he jaded enough to start a clone army??? NO. Darth Maul is just simply dead, and Mace is another who just is who he is. Not every charactor needs to be strictly dual, this theory has gone too far...
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