The ULTIMATE Mystery - Can YOU solve it?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by billydeewilliams, May 20, 2002.

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  1. Ob_my_guest Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    I dislke those "logical" conclusions you guys make sometimes. I dont think you can be that conclusive about things you can never have enough information. What is that about NEVER and NO-ONE. I think you need to come back to ground zero and rethink your "logical" conclusions.
    First: Disguising has been a theme of all epics. Disguising makes it easier for building suspense, and to build complicated plot lines. So it is not just a particular thing of George Lucas

    Second: The best disguises are multiple ones. The good guy acting as if he were a bad guy pretenging to be a good guy. If you know what i mean, then it would be obvious that ANYONE trying to cover something will at some point think to have a tripple disguise.

    Third: Simpler explanations are the best ones. Why do you guys keep trying to make this story more complex than it really is? Why you keep insisting on Palpatine being a clone? Just because you read it on EU doesn mean it will make it to the movies.

    Fourth: We are getting older and we overthink this movies sometimes...
  2. AgonyEngine Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2001
    star 4
    BTW, read the credits, it states that Palpatine and Sidious is the same person. The only real question about Dooku is whether or not he's a misguided dark jedi trying to take the sith apart from inside or is he a sith. In my mind this movie proved that he is indeed a sith.
  3. RWJIII Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    I like the idea you posted. People (specially writers) become routine in their work following certain rules. I might have an explanation for the Sifo-Dyas using the dual identities rule.

    Mr. Lucas, in his mind, may not believe names = identities. He might think that Palp was a Jedi (good) Jedi name unknown (possibly Sifo-Dyas). Now he is evil and going under the names of Palp, and Seth.
  4. CobaltGrC Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2000
    I have a question, did they say if Sifo-Dyas was on the jedi council 10 years ago? Cause if he was, shouldn't he be siting in the jedi concil camber in TPM?
  5. Raliegh-StClair Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 1
    Where is it written or said that Palpatine is 1000 years old? Is that EU stuff? If so, it's not credible just because Lucas doesn't seem to let that stop him from telling the story the way he wants.
  6. Artanis_Knarf Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2002
    star 1
    As I asked before....

    Can someone please explain what:

    "How do you know when you've gone too far?"

    Referring to Mace in the Choices trailer....

    What does this mean, other than he's responsible for the Army's creation?

    And as Obi-Will_Kenobi asked almost verbatum 1 hour later:

    "...Mace is sitting down thinking: The following text pops up on the screen.

    "How do you know when you have gone too far?"

    What does this mean? I can't think of anything in AOTC that Mace did that he would regret. hmmm..."
  7. Mason Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2002
    star 1
    ...Palpy may be Sidious, or Sidious may be Sifo-Dyas, or Sifo may be Palpy, but does anyone think that all three could be the same person?(I don't)

    As for duality, thus far, the only force users who matter to the story who haven't demonstrated any 'duality' are Mace, Qui-Gon, and Maul. This has been said before...the secret likely lies within these three individuals... again, this is covered material, but it bears repeating....
  8. rustybaseball Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2002
    star 1
    Here's a little explanation for why Palpatine is NOT 1,000 years old.

    At the end of Return of the Jedi we finally see Anakin after all these years. In ROTJ, he looks to be in his late seventies/early eighties, but by the Star Wars timeline it has only been 30 years since the end of AOTC, making Anakin 50. I would assume the stronger you are in the Dark Side, the more it takes its toll on your body.

    That's why Sidious appears to be much younger in these movies, and probably why GL had him pull his cloak down lower, because he's quite a bit younger in these movies as opposed to his Dark Side diseased soul at the end of ROTJ.
  9. rustybaseball Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2002
    star 1
    You all realize we're getting off topic as well...?
  10. Raliegh-StClair Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 1
    I agree with that. It's only been ten years and Palpatine looks horrible compared to Episode 1. That isn't written anywhere, that I know of, but I think it's the obvious answer. Even in Episode 2, he looks older at the end than he did at the beginning.
  11. Disco_Dooku Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 2
    Thsi doesn't solve the Syfo-Dyas mystery but does help on the duality theory.

    Ok, I have something that may or my not prove that Palpatine=Sidious. I read in this thread or another, I am not sure, that TPM DVD mentions something difinitive about Sidious=Emperor Palpatine.

    On TPM DVD audio commentary GL states that he wanted to introduce Darth Sidious as a hologram because he wanted to maintain a thematic device that he first created in ESB. GL states that we see Darth Sidious the same way we saw HIM in ESB, as a hologram. That seems pretty clear cut and supports billydeewilliams duality theory.

    Now we have these equations:

    Senator Palpatine = Emperor Palpatine (GL and TOS)
    Darth Sidious = Emperor Palpatine (GL on TPM DVD)

    Using the math rule (I forget the actual name) A=B, B=C, then A must equal C. Right?

    Therefore, if:
    Sen. Palpatine (A)= Emperor Palpatine (C)
    Darth Sidious (B) = Emperor Palpatine (C)

    Then Sen. Palpatine (A) MUST equal Darth Sidious (B)

    Follow that? Any holes?


  12. DarthScout Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    Me again :) Back to duality...

    Enough with the Leia triple identity. She may have been an imperial senator before we met her, but for the movies that we have, there is no senate. It's like saying that she was a therapy patient after her mother died. She may well have been, but we don't see it in the movies. What we are presented with in the OT is two identities.

    If you grasp the *idea* of the duality theme, then you understand that Darth Sidious and Emperor Palpatine are actually the same identity--the same leader of the dark side, the Master, etc. And his other identity is in the senate.

    Billydee originally posited that Dooku could not have been Sifo due to the duality theme. Unfortunately, I have to disagree and say that the duality theme as it has been refined and formed by myself and others does not necessarily exclude Dooku, if the clones were ordered by someone pretending to be Sifo. Anyone could have used the name without violating the duality theme if it were simply a disguise. But I also don't think this implicates Dooku either, and I think the whole Mace argument is a stretch.

  13. Sinje_Gawa Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2001
    star 2
    Sure, I can solve it.

    Gui-Gon Ginn has a dual identity that has already been shown to us... he's also Dead Guy.

    Same thing with Darth Maul, except he just had to go and try to outdo Ginn... he's Cut-In-Half Dead Guy.

    Mace Windu's secret identity is that he's really one of Padme Amidala's identical handmaidens. More than likely, he's also Guy Soon To Be Dead As of Episode III.

    Syfo-Dyas... well, wasn't that Bea Arthur's nickname in the Golden Girls? No, wait... he's Dead Guy We've Never Met, whose name was used to order the clones, because he's also the Dead Guy They've Never Met on Kamino, and don't know he's supposed to be dead. I don't think someone actually named Syfo-Dyas really ordered the Clones. The Kamino didn't know any better. They haven't updated their Who's Who in the Jedi Order series from Time Life Books in a few years. So I really don't expect that Syfo-Dyas really has anything to do with it. That's kind of like thinking someone really has Prince Albert in a can.

    I don't think there is any other significance. Ever since Lucas decided that every really important Jedi in the galaxy out of 10,000 had to have the same friends and family calling cirle - Yoda>Dooku>Ginn>Obi-Wan>Anakin I doubt that any one else, even other "major" Jedi, will have any serious twists to them. I guess the other 9,995 Jedi spend all their time answering phones for a Jerry Lewis telethon, because if they did anything really significant in galactic history they'd have be in this rather forced and farcical lineage.
  14. clay_windu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 1
    I have decided to join the threads after reading these threads for over a year now. This topic is one of the best so far. I am curious about the cloud of energy being released from sidious' body when he is thrown into the pit by vader? This might help in solving this riddle of duality. Does this represent bringing balance to the force? Is this the release of the dark side that resides in palps body? Could this possibly be the release of the evil carnation of sidious from palps? Just curious what you guys think. Clones rules!!
  15. LightCyber Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    For the people who dont think Jar Jar has a dual identity, how about this:

    1. Outcast of the Gungan Society

    transforms to:

    2. Leader of the Gungan people (General, Senator)

    What do you think of this?
  16. RiggsWolfe Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2002
    star 2
    Darth Scout,

    about Leah and her triple identity.

    The senate doesn't get swept away until mid-way through ANH. It is first brought up during the meeting with all the Imperial Generals on the DS.

    Leah's being a senator is actually brought up in the movie. "The senate will not sit still for this, when they hear you've attacked a diplomatic mission..."

    Even if it's not saying she's a senator (which we know she is) she is a diplomat. An IMPERIAL diplomat. So it still supports dual identity. Imperial diplomat/senator and rebel leader. Then we tack on the Luke's sister ("the other") and we have three. I don't think it invalidates the duality theory, I think it is simply an exception.

    I do agree with you about Sifo Dyas and in fact, it's been my argument the whole time. That he is merely a third party that will never be brought up again whose name was used as part of a Sith plot. I'd reckon the character's importance as somewhere close to Captain Antilles of the Tantive IV. IE a name we'll probably never hear again.
  17. Disco_Dooku Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 2
  18. jedibri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2000
    star 4
    I'm leaning on the side that Sifo Dyas is Jinn. My reasoning isn't that great only to say that in the AOTC book it say's that Yoda hears Jinn yell "Anakin NOOOOOOO" while taping into the darkside.
    I think Jinn was somewhat of a loose cannon. I think he walked the fine line of Good & Bad. I also find it interesting that the only Jedi who dies in between TPM & AOTC is Jinn. And the fact that AOTC takes place 10 years after TPM all adds up to Jinn.
    I've never heard that Darth Maul was ever a Jedi. And I don't think he was a "Lost 20or "21".
    Also why would Lucas bring back Jinn in Epi.II if he doesn't play a larger roll?
  19. Obi-Will_Kenobi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2001
    Ok. Since Artanis_Knarf and I are the only ones that seem to be the least bit concerned about the Choices trailer I will try to explain it myself.

    Just to remind you, the scene was Mace Windu and text appeared that said "How do you know you have gone too far."

    First let's say this. Syfo-Dias absolutely positively does NOT have to be a sith or a bad guy to order the clone army. He could be, but he doesn't have to be. Some excellent points were made earlier concerning Mace.

    1. He reacts very quickly to Obi-Wan's questions about the creation of a clone army.
    2. He seems very concerned when telling Palpatine Jedi are protectors not soldiers
    3. He makes sure to kill Jango Fett to keep him quite. (This one may be a reach)

    Mace Windu is the second highest Jedi in the galaxy. He can obviously feel/see that things are starting get grim for the republic and most importantly for the Jedi. Directly after the Battle of Naboo, Mace went to Kamino ordered the clone army. He used the name Syfo-dias because he knew Syfo-dias had just died and hopefully the papertrail would stop in Kamino. Now here is an intersting twist that I hope you guys enjoy. TYRANNUS did hire Jango Fett! And here is how. Just before or after Dooku leaves the Jedi order (It may or may not be irrelevant), Mace Windu gives him orders to find an excellent Bounty Hunter/Soldier/Person to use as a clone. Dooku hires Jango Fett, telling Jango that his name is Tyrannus to concile his identity. Of course I believe Jango eventually realizes that Dooku and Tyrannus are one in the same. Lastly, Mace Windu erases Kamino from the Jedi Archives. Ten years later Mace hears about the creation of a clone army while the Republic is in peril and thinks "How do you know when you have gone too far?" regretting what he has done!!

    Here is how he got the money to order the clone army. Palpatine most likely cornered Master Windu in a situation very similar to what Palpatine does to Anakin in AOTC. Palpatine probably conviced Mace that a clone army was of most importance and Palpatine probably fronted the money for Mace to order the first 200,000 clones. I think this makes sense.

    Taking into consideration that the topic of this thread, Syfo-Dias has to be Qui-Gon, Maul, or Mace. With this post I have pretty much convinced myself that Mace is Syfo-Dias. I welcome any counter arguments, but remember in this thread your counter argument can only be why Syfo-Dias is not Mace and why Syfo-dias is either Maul or Qui-Gon. I think we have pretty much ruled out that he isn't Maul.

    - OWK
  20. taeseesiin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 1
    You're absolutely right, Disco. Palpatine has to be Sidious.

    Someone else asked if Dooku was a dark jedi or if he is a Sith. His other name is Darth Tyrannus. Only Sith have the title Darth, therefore, Dooku must be a Sith.

    Obi-Will: I like your reasoning, and I think that your theory is just as good or better than any out there. The truth is, we unfortunately don't have enough info yet to prove any theory about who Sifo-Dyas is, or who used the name to order the clones. Your explanation is very good though and makes a lot of sense.
  21. ObiWanJane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 1999
    star 4
    Just wanted to weigh in on something someone said a while back -- that Sidious had three sides/personalities:

    --the Emperor
    --Senator Palpatine
    --Darth Sidious


    What?

    As Palpatine, he was once a senator and is now Chancellor. His secret identity is Sidious. That's it, just two.

    :)
  22. Darth Sin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 5
    I am of the opinion now that if Sifo-Dyas is someone besides that this guy was a legit Jedi Master, then he is someone that has already been seen so far in the Prequels. The choices are Maul, Qui-Gon, Dooku, Yoda, Mace or Palpatine/Sidious

    I am using my recent Leia/Sifo-Dyas theory to support this. We saw Leia from the beginning in the OT, we knew she was someone very important in the saga, but it was not until EP III that we learned that she was Luke's brother, that she was Luke's twin, and she was the person Yoda said in ESB, "There is another"!

    I am going to step out on a limb and say that Qui-Gon=Sifo-Dyas

    The obvious choices right off the bat are Sidious or Dooku. My instincts tell me it was Dooku, but let's forget that for now. But in this theory these two do not work. Palpatine/Sidious dooes not get out much, and he relies on other people doing his dirty work and reporting back.

    Dooku does not work in this theory, because he is the equivalent of Yoda from the OT. They both enter in the second act, they play a major role in the outcome, and both leave early in the third act. I believe Dooku will die in the first hour of EP III.

    Darth Maul is an excellent choice, but is was not a Jedi, and Mace and Yoda know this and Mace said as much at the end of TPM. "There is no doubt the mysterious warrior was a Sith".

    Mace Windu, absolutely not. He is simply a good guy that is exemplifying some of the errors and poor judgement the Jedi made that aided their demise.

    So the person that fits the bill is non other than Qui-Gon Jinn. Now there have been others that have said as much. Qui-Gon fits my Leia/Sifo-Dyas theory.
    He is introduced at the beginning of the PT trilogy as was Leia.

    Qui-Gon also plays a major role in how things turn out in the saga. If he were to turn out to be Sifo-Dyas, this would not doubt be on the level of surprise of Leia being Luke's sister. The revelation of Qui-Gon being Sifo-Dyas would come in EP III, just as the revelation that Leia is Luke's sister. Qui-Gon would be the "there is another" of the Prequels.

    Also, the other parallel for Leia and Qui-Gon is that Dooku told Obi-Wan that Qui-Gon would have joined him, which is similiar to Vader telling Luke, if you will not turn and join me, perhaps she(Leia)will. This is a major clue that could perhaps show that Sifo-Dyas may have been Qui-Gon.

    But the question is, why would Qui-Gon have done such a thing?? Dooku basically said to Obi-Wan that he and Qui-Gon were more alike than he would like to have heard. Dooku telling Obi-Wan that Qui-Gon spoke highly of Obi-Wan showed that they spoke quite often and continued to communicate. Dooku also said that Qui-Gon knew of the corruption in the Senate.

    Let me say before going further. I don't believe that Qui-Gon is Sifo-Dyas the person, but rather that he portrayed Sifo-Dyas at Kamino.

    Other clues that point to Qui-Gon:

    Anakin: No one can kill a Jedi
    Qui-Gon: I wish that were so ;)

    Qui-Gon: I have acquired a pod in a game of chance.....;
    Watto: I hope you didn't "kill" anyone I know for it

    I believe Dooku and Qui-Gon knew that the dark side was rising, and that the Sith would return/reemerge. Dooku had for some time been studying the dark side and Sith history. He obviously influenced Qui-Gon not only in terms of an independent spirit, but Dooku's familiarity with Sith history is what helped Qui-Gon be able to quickly recognize that Maul was a Sith Lord.

    Dooku and Qui-Gon knew the Republic was in danger, and made the decision for a clone army for the Republic. Sifo-Dyas was killed, possibly by Dooku unknown to Qui-Gon. So Dooku persuades Qui-Gon to use the name of the dead Jedi Master when ordering the clones. Dooku being wealthy as he is, gives the money to Qui-Gon for down payment. Qui-Gon certainly had no problem with a little deception, as we saw in TPM, as long as the end was good.

    The clones being ordered without the authorization of the Jedi Council is a clear example of Dooku and Qui-Gon's independent spirits.

    Also, as som
  23. Darth_PinkDotGuy Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    I am, like many people confused.. on many levels. The possibility of Qui-Gon being the Clone orderer is quite promising. So, on that account, is the possibilty of Darth Maul being the Clone orderer.

    Qui Gon did something, as we are told by Obi-One in TPM, to upset the council. Did he order the Clones, thus resulting in the council being upset?? Also, he was Dookoo's padawan and the 2 of them must've been close, huh? So, he stays with the jedi, albeit under double-secret probation and Dookoo leaves.

    Darth Maul: He has jedi training. he has a lightsaber. and his face looks almost exactly like the ceiling in the Beru homstead.... so, what the heck! Darth Maul could've been a Jedi, before his face was painted, then he leaves and paints his face to match that of his tatooine residence, thus macking him unreckognizable to Qui-Gonn. This just opens up all sorts of cans of worms... HELP!!!!!
  24. Disco_Dooku Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 2
    Let's get off the illusion that only Jedi have lightsabers. The Sith have been around for millinia and so have the Jedi. They have battled eachother numerous times, now wouldn't one think that in all those years that the Sith would be able to figure out how to make a lightsaber? It is not just a Jedi weapon. I am sure in the battles that took place, one or two were left behind. Don't you think that a Sith, who is greedy and wanting more power, wouldn't figure out how to create a lightsaber of their own?

    And why do you think that because a Sith knows the "Jedi arts" that he had to be a former Jedi? Aren't the Sith an offspring of the Jedi formed by fallen Jedi long ago? If the ancient Sith were once Jedi, and knew the "arts" wouldn't you think that they would pass that knowledge down from Sith Lord to Sith Lord who in turn teach it to their young apprentices?
  25. smallpaul Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2001
    star 3
    interesting speculation about Qui Gon folks but,.....The second draft of the AOTC script had the clones ordered by SyDO-Dyas. This was an obvious synonym for Sideous. Which means that when AOTC was being written Lucas was not considering Qui Gon to be the clone orderer. He clearly wanted to illude to Sidious. Therefore we can not use dialop from TPM to prove the point that Qui Gon did it. If Qui Gon did it is an afterthought and not designed from the beginning.
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