The ULTIMATE Mystery - Can YOU solve it?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by billydeewilliams, May 20, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. tomm4004 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 1
    Whew! Obi-Wan clearly knew who Syfo-Dyas was, even by reputation, so I think it would be difficult for him to be Qui-Gon, Maul or Windu. He also could not be Palpatine because he would be recognized and Palpy must have had a normal life on Naboo (or nearby) to rise to the rank of Senator.

    What confuses me a little is that the Prime Minister of Kamino said the clone army was ordered by Syfo-Dyas, yet Jango said he'd never heard of him. You would think that in his ten years on Kamino he and the PM would have had dinner once or twice and discussed it. But I'm not sure why Jango would lie to Obi-Wan. Why mention Tyrannus? Why give Obi-Wan another name that might mean something to Yoda or Windu. In fact, I don't remember Obi-Wan telling them about Tyrannus in his transmission, which is also strange.

    I also wondered that if Dooku did order the clone army why he was suprised to see them show up on Geonosis. Wouldn't Jango have told him that Obi-Wan Kenobi had shown up on Kamino, and thus the Jedi Council now know about the clone army?

    There's obviously a lot of deception going on.
  2. Tayschrenn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    I'd like to raise just one point in contrast to what most people here are saying. The whole argument that: Palpy/Qui-Gon/Maul/etc. couldn't be Syfo-Dyas simply because they "aren't on the Council"

    IMHO, this really shouldn't mean anything.

    Lets look at the Kaminoans in Episode II. Obi-Wan rocks up and they immediatly believe him for what he says he is. They take him on tours, treat him as a Jedi, based on what exactly? When the real Syfo-Dyas died 10 years previously, they were totally oblivious.

    This leaves me to believe that, honestly, anyone could have come and claimed to be Syfo-Dyas and they would have believed it.

    My $0.05.
  3. sabrecmc Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2002
    star 1
    As Darth Kyle says, the Council never confirms Sifo-Dyas' death. Obi-Wan says he was "under the impression" he had died about 10 years ago. Now, have we ever heard Obi-Wan say anyone had died when they had really turned to the dark side? Could this be a metaphor used for the fall of a Jedi to the dark side that the Council perhaps used in the case of Sifo-Dyas and then Obi-Wan uses that same metaphor in explaining to Luke about his father? If it is a fallen Jedi who "died" 10 years ago, then Sifo-Dyas would have a different name now. Maul? Tyranus(so that's why Jango says it was him?).
    I don't know. We could be overcomplicating things here, but I liked Darth Kyle's catch about the whole "under the impression" thing and how no one really confirms this. And, there is that knowing look b/w Mace and Yoda....

    Gotta love rampant and unchecked speculation!
  4. sbrown2976 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    I agree with some of the things, but that would also lead us to think that Dooku and Syfo-Dyas as seperate people. They are both named to the Jedi Council. Windu says it to Padme after the opening, then the name was recognized by the council when Obi-Won tells him what he has found. It could play into the dual identity theme previously discussed, Syfo-Dyas=Count Dooku. This will also open then door to people saying what about Tyrannus. Well Syfo-Dyas equaled Dooku until he left the council and Syfo-Dyas "died" ("From a certain point of view.") and Dooku became a man of the public known as Count Dooku. Then he joins the Dark Side and his name is Tyrannus. I think this is a stretch though. Comments?
  5. Darth-Murder Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2001
    star 1
    The name "Sifo-Dyas" was originally meant to be spelled "Sido-Dyas", which is awfully similar to Sidious. I know Lucas changed the name to 'sifo' because 'sido-dyas' was too *obvious*. In other words, proof that your theory is invalid: It was indeed Palpatine/Sidious who ordered the clones. For the Republic.

    If Qui-Gon ordered the clones, he had to work together with the Sith - which is too complicated to be a point in 'Episode III'.

    Maul is dead and was a minor character - too complicated to be a point in 'Episode III'.

    And having a three-sided character in the form of PALPATINE/SIDIOUS/SIFO-DYAS would be in nature with the character, as being really different from the rest of the characters in the saga.

    Jabba the Hutt has three sides to him: The CGI- ANH SE Jabba, the good ol' Jabba in ROJ and the half-good TPM Jabba ;)
  6. Seraph_nyc Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    If Darth Maul was a jedi the there would be no mystery of the sith in TPM. Yoda and Windu would know who it was since SifoDyas died around the time of TPM. Also one more thing If Sifo Dyas is Count Dooku how can he be a apprentice to Sidious. You can only have 2 sith, maul is the second, there is no room for Dooku
  7. jeditigger Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002

    You know, I've seen TPM well near two dozen times, and I STILL haven't figured out what "the mystery of the Sith" is. Guess I need to look that the TPM fourms, huh?
  8. Obi-Wan_has_a_mullet Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    Think about this...

    When Obi-Wan meets Dex in the Diner, Obi-Wan asks about the Kaminoans...

    OBI: Are the friendly?

    DEX: Depends...(Says something I forget) and HOW BIG YOUR POCKETBOOK IS. (Laughs)

    So obviously however ordered the clones, in order to deal with the Kaminoans, has money. I don't know this whole issue is so convuluted but I love it...Ep. III will rock!
  9. ODUFrank Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2000
    star 2
    "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have revenge."

    Reveal and revenge. Think about it. Reveal means they were hiding, very secret, and about to "come out" but revenge? For what? What did the Jedi ever do to them?
  10. ODUFrank Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2000
    star 2
    What I don't get is this: the clone army. If Sidious wants to get rid of the Jedi, then wouldn't it suck for HIS (if that is the case, which I am sure of) clone army to "save the day"?
  11. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    OK it is interesting that you mention Mace being a duality character- all you have to do is remember the look he gives Dooku after lobbing off Jango's head. That little 2 second scene has bothered me each time I watch it.

    What the hell was that?????? Dooku seems horrified/ personally offended that Mace just chopped off the annoying Bounty Hunter's head. I highly doubt Dooku cares Jango had a son- although that is what the camera pans to. Mace on the otherhand gives him a look I can't place- regret? It seems to say "Sorry man- you couldn't control him- it was either him or me.'

    Also if you look at Mace when he jumps onto the control ship, he's really pissed off, flicking his saber around and not at all happy.

    I don't know how or if this will play out- but I don't know what is going on with Mace. Guess I'll have to pay attention to him closer w/ next viewing.
  12. Darth_Scarlet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 1
    Who is Sifo-Dyas? Tom Cruise, he is evil and he is Sith. Don't be fooled by his gleaming smile ;) .
  13. smaaug Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    If Qui Gon is sith, why would he yell "Anakin, Anakin!! N0 NO"

    Wouldnt he say yes yes?
  14. ODUFrank Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2000
    star 2
    Hmm. Ordering the clone army, that does not make him a Sith. His intentions were probably honorable and manipulated and he wasn't into the Dark Side or anything.
  15. tomm4004 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 1
    I think the Sith are getting revenge for nearly being wiped out 1,000 years ago.
  16. AEslave_jessarae Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2002
    I think qui gon is a good guy and was betrayed without his knowledge..i think he helped in the idea of the clone army with dooku..but i think he was tricked..yet why was dooku so suprised when he realized the jedi had an army of there own if he knew of the clones..is it possible he didnt know of the clones..this whole clone thing and who is bnehind it has me buggin..so which is the true way of who ordered the clones..was it qui gon/dooku or qui gon/syfo dyas...this where im baffled..so many unanswered questions..how is GL going to cram all this info in 1 movie..i think we need a 3 and a 3.5 just to get all the unanswered questions..any thoughts..please help this confused lost soul..will accept critisism and nice comments on this..be gentle.
  17. SupertonesStrikeBack Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2001
    i don't know how to phrase this... people keep on commenting on how obi-wan says that this "sifo-dias" character DIED approx. 10 years ago, and that this could be another one of those issues concerning a "certain point of view." let us not forget, however, that obi says to PM Lama Su "master sifo-dias was KILLED almost ten years ago" (direct quote from the movie, i saw it again for the 5th time today and memorized this one part cuz it stook out to me this time). he did not "die" and cease his identity as a jedi nearly 10 years ago, he was apparently killed either in the line of duty or murdered.

    then again, when the aged obi-wan talks to young luke in ANH, he tells him "a man named darth vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil... betrayed and murdered your father." so now, i have to ask MYSELF, does obi-wan mean the good man once known as "sifo-dias" was "murdered" by an evil alter-ego, perhaps by the name of darth tyrannus? no, i think not, because it would seem to me you can't refer to such a change in personalities as a "murder" if you do not know the alter ego. going back to the luke/obi-wan discussion about his father, he is able to tell luke that the man known as ANAKIN was murdered by the identity/man known as VADER. he doesn't say who "murders" sifo-dias--and it doesn't appear that the name "tyrannus" has any effect on obi-wan when jango presents him with it. so to me, this whole "certain point of view" concept cannot pan out as it's not a matter of point of view-there was no murder of personality.

    what i'm saying is, is that obi-wan, if this was all metaphorical talk, would know the name "tyrannus" as the identity that "murdered" sifo-dias. am i making sense. it seems to me, instead, that someone is USING sifo-dias's name. and probably dooku as we know that dooku also uses the name "tyrannus"--DARTH tyrannus.

    although the whole concept of duality is really wonderful, i don't think it will be the case here, i really don't. dooku is the perfect fit because a) he has the money necessary for the purchase of these clones; b) jango says he was hired for this job by the man named tyrannus, whom we know to be dooku; and c) since dooku was obviously once a jedi and very familiar with all the members of the council, he would very easily know who sifo-dias is/was and be able to use his name upon dias's death. it all fits dooku. some say it cannot be dooku b/c he obviously has no knowledge of the existence of the clone army-this is not true. this much is never revealed-he merely questions where the jedi could have come up with such and army so fast. i would not expect him to immediately think that they would have taken HIS army. also, he doesn't even necessarily know what his army looks like-no one has shown up in the last 10 years (prior to obi-wan's visit) to check up on this army.

    "we've been expecting you, master jedi. we were beginning to think you were not going to come," says taun we. obviously, obi is the first person to show up checking on this army.

  18. obi-wan-girl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 3
    Sifo-Dyas cant have ordered the clones himself, because he DIED. He was obviously a well known member of the Jedi order. If Palpatine/Dooku/Qui-Gon/anyone else was SD, people would KNOW. Someone else had to use his name, someone who knew he was dead. The Kaminoans (sp) would not have known this. Personally, I think it was Dooku. We know already that Dooku is without a doubt Lord Tyrannus, and Jango said himself that a man name Tyrannus hired him for the job. So Dooku definitly knew about the clone army. I dont think impersonating SD would count as a third identity, because SD was someone else who really lived. He is his own identity.
  19. SupertonesStrikeBack Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2001
    oh, and i forgot to mention a few other things i consider important. people seem to be focusing on the "coincidence" and timing that this master sifo-dias character died "almost ten years ago," and "so did qui-gonn jinn" according to several people. well, for one thing, obi-wan says "almost 10 years ago," and it's quite clear that this movie takes place a FULL 10 years after TPM. IN MY OWN HUMBLE OPINION, the timing on the death of master sifo-dias does not exactly coincide with qui-gonn's so the fact that both qui-gonn and sifo-dias have died in the since the last movie has little to do with anything. in my own opinion, qui-gonn has little to nothing to do with all this, although i could be proved wrong later. but let's face it, qui-gonn dies 10 years ago and sifo-dias was killed ALMOST 10 years ago.

    PLUS, many people (though not all) seem to be forgetting that darth maul also died ten years ago. as soon as maul was gone, (as far as we know, there are no clones of him to be worrying about) sidious would have had to take up a new apprentice. this leaves time enough for dooku to have entered the scene and begun working with/for sidious. however, it would seem to me that that would leave a VERY limited time frame for dooku to have become sidious's new apprentice and begin the developement of a clone army--it would have had to have been one of the first assignments dooku would have had under sidious's influence. nevertheless, we know that jango was hired by a "man named tyrannus." whether or not he was using the title "darth" at that time seems to be up in the air. no matter how you dice it, this is very confusing.
  20. Emp_Palpartine Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2001
    star 4
    Palpy: if it hasn't already been said... Palpatine clones himself. Starwars.com says that Luke gets transported to the core of a planet and see's Palpy's clone and then he turns to the darkside to defeat the Emperor and the empire...

    But that is my own idea if it has anything to do with the idea of Palpy being that other guy that orderd the clone army... ect. ect.
  21. darksun4 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    Hey I'm new but I'm already loving this sight. I think that Syfo-Dias is definently Darth sideous because my theory is that he was ounce a jedi that got a hold of the sith holocron. I have no doubt that Mace and Qui-Gon are good those are my theories.
  22. KevinPark Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    Reasons not mentioned so far on why I think it is Qui Gon. (I only read about half the thread before posting for the record)

    I remember one of the big questions in episode I. It was 'What the hell was that timed force field wall thing?'

    We all were stumped because we had never seen such a structure. Why would something like that be designed? Is it to seperate the magician(s) from the viewer?

    Also how would palpy have been able to place such an order with his increased responsibilities at the time. Qui Gon 'gone' gives him the preperation time he would have needed.

    LASTLY.

    This is kinda out there but... Liam Nieson when he was hired for Episode I was a huge actor. He had just come off schindlers list, and was very excited about doing a star wars film and being an influental character. As was Sam Jackson, but Sam Jackson was no were the actor Liam was considered after his schindlers list performance. Thus in theroy he got to pick his role. If Liam picked a role in which he would be only required to be in one film... Why does he constantly still hint about a continued possibility of his returning in the future? I mean he dropped what a verbal line in the last movie? Something probably recorded during Episode I's filming?

    Just some things to think about.

  23. Old_Wolf Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    Could anyone please post a word for word exchange of Obi Wan's discussion with Taun We and the Prime Minister of the Kaminoans, as well as his report back to the council?
  24. Old_Wolf Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    anyone know there is an "official" script posted anywhere on the web?
  25. MachinatingMachiavel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2002
    star 2
    well I hardly even remember the original saga *ducks* so I can't be of too much help intrapolating for episode III. But it would definitley be entirley possible to figure out the big switch since anyone versed in both the prequels and the originals has a lot of "data" to work with - ie, they can both extra- and intrapolate.

    But the search for identity is not surprising to take on such a bold form in the star wars series since all literature ultimatley goes back to this theme. It's the purpose of literature. Just ask Frye.

    so this was basically a useless post. Well, you'll all get used to my name.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.