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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

The ULTIMATE Mystery - Can YOU solve it?

Discussion in 'Archive: Attack of the Clones' started by billydeewilliams, May 20, 2002.

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  1. Obi-Will_Kenobi

    Obi-Will_Kenobi Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2001
    Awesome post BillyDee! I love the topic. Interstingly enough I just finished discussing who ordered the clones with a few friends of mine. Here is my take:

    I absolutely agree with the rule of two. I also agree that only three characters that we know could have ordered the clone army. Personally I don't think it was Maul. I don't know Maul's background, but I don't think he was ever a Jedi. I also agree with a previous post that said Maul was an introductory character to set up a story for the sith.

    This leaves two: Qui-Gon and Mace Windu. First I'll start with Qui-Gon.

    In my opinion Qui-Gon ordered the clone army. I have a few intersting opinions about Qui-Gon that may seem farfetched. I think Qui-Gon could have possibly been working against the Coucil's wishes. I don't think he is a Sith, but Lucas makes a strong point to tell us that Qui-Gon is not on great terms with the council. MOST importantly, something should be said about the fact that Qui-Gon really really really wants Anikan to be taught in the ways of the force. Why does he care so much? Or does he have alterior motives. hmmmm. It is possible that Lucas may do a 180 on us and reveal that Qui-Gon may have not been good after all. I also read somewhere that Liam Niesson has a contractural agreement to appear in all three episodes(this could be not true at all). Now this could just mean that he talks to Anikan or Obi-Wan, but he could turn out to be a bad guy. Personally, I think it is Qui-Gon. I just have a feeling he is a bad guy.

    Lastly, we have Mace Windu. What can be said about Mace? He sure replies to Obi-Wan with a really quick and emphathetic NO when Obi-Wan asks about the order to create clones. That strikes me funny. This would also ruin that Sith work in pairs, but I don't want to go there because I think we could start a whole new thread about how the Sith pair Master/Apprentice thing works. It could be Mace, but I am a firm believer that Yoda is the best Jedi ever. I think Yoda would've figured this one out, being that Mace is his buddy. I wouldn't surprised if Sifa was Mace but I need some explaining.

    To end this terribly long post I would like to finish by restating that I believe Syfa-Dias is Qui-Gon Jinn. I have a gut that there is more to be told about Qui-Gon and I don't think it will be good.

    Please let me know what you guys think.

    Awesome thread!

    - OWK
     
  2. Darth-Nalgas

    Darth-Nalgas Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2001
    In AOTC Jango Fett explicitely states that he was hired by a man named Tyrannus. What is the argument? Tyrannus/Dooku ordered the clones. If you want proof, just watch the movie again.
     
  3. Darth-Nalgas

    Darth-Nalgas Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2001
    oops, double post.
     
  4. Darth_Ozzy

    Darth_Ozzy Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 20, 2002
    I have an interesting little bit of info. Not sure if its been mentioned, but i couldnt find it, so here it is. In the 'teaser' entitled "choices", the one that came on the dvd if you put in in your computer before nov. 9th.- it shows many still photos with captions. One of these photos is of Mace, in a contimplative stare, and the caption says---How Will You Know When You've Gone Too Far. Now, regarding your theme of duality(which i totally agree with) this almost certainly shows that Mace WILL do something that would be considered 'going too far' since he did nothing of the sort in aotc. I would be willing to bet he has another identity...please let me know what you think
     
  5. mustang_dvs

    mustang_dvs Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 17, 1999
    I think everyone has forgotten that the Kaminoians never met Sifo Dyas. Remember, they thought that Obi Wan was the long-dead Jedi. Therefore, it is unimportant who the real Sifo Dyas is, but what is important is who claimed to be his agent. That agent was likely Dooku, aka Tryannus, who hired Jango Fett and likely brought him to Kamino.

    It doesn't really matter who the real Sifo Dyas is -- he was just a name chosen to hide the real buyer.
     
  6. DeltaJedi

    DeltaJedi Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2002
    I love this kinda discussion...good thread...

    Darth Maul
    Darth Maul is a Sith Apprentice, but he has a lightsaber. Albeit, it's one of his own constructing, but it is still a lightsaber nevertheless. Now, unless we find out otherwise, the only individuals who carry lightsabers are Jedi Knights.

    The two non-Jedi that carry lightsabers are Darth Vader (ex-Jedi) and Count Dooku (ex-Jedi). The one Force user that we know that does NOT carry a lightsaber is Darth Sidious/Emporer Palpatine. Why is this? Is it perhaps because he was never a Jedi and never gained the knowledge of how to build one?

    Qui-Gon's line "He was well schooled in the Jedi arts" could be a clue for Maul. He is a Zabrak (not an uncommon race, as there is another Zabrak Jedi who's name eludes me), and could possibly have sat on the Jedi Council as Sifo-Dyas prior to getting his facial/body tattoos that make him so distinctive. I doubt anyone would recongize him (especially if they're trying to concentrate on fighting) with that kind of change. I think that it is *entirely* possible that Darth Maul was Sifo-Dyas, and I think there is good circumstantial evidence to link him to the part.

    Qui-Gon Jinn
    Qui-Gon is going to be a problem for Lucas, continuity wise. As it stands, any further role for him in the PT is going to be a problem, since he is never mentioned in any of the post E3 movies. It might be best to just leave him as a wandering spirit and never mention him again.

    However, I think it is interesting to note that Qui-Gon Jinn suffered from the same form of Hubiris as Obi-Wan Kenobi, has padawan, involving training. Qui-Gon must've known the risk he was taking by bringing Anakin Skywalker from Tatooine to Coruscant and starting his training. He thought that he understood the prophecy of "Balancing the Force," and that he could control it, but he was wrong. Just the same way as Obi-Wan thought he could instruct Anakin just as well as he had been instructed.

    I wouldn't be surprised to see Qui-Gon be played in a negative light for trying to 'arrange' things too much. He brought Anakin out of Tatooine to try and right the balance of the force, just as (perhaps) he ordered the clone army to give the Jedi some control of their future situations. I don't think Qui-Gon was evil, in the slightest, but I do believe he was guilty of thinking too highly of the Jedi, himself, and of his control over things.

     
  7. TheSithLordNinpo

    TheSithLordNinpo Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Have you ever thought that maybe there really was a jedi named Sifo Dyas, and he really did die 10 years ago? I know you really loved Darth Maul (believe me, I did too) but I think it's a stretch to say that he was Sifo Dyas.

    Also if I'm not mistaken doesn't Palpy have 3 identities:
    the Emperor
    Senator Palpatine
    Darth Sidious
     
  8. Greadius

    Greadius Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 20, 2002
    Nalgas is right... Jango says that he was hired by Tyrannus, and as soon as he leaves Kamino he heads straight to Dooku.

    My only problem with Dooku as Syfa-Dias as Dooku is that you would think the man LEADING the seperatists would be recognized as a former Jedi by SOMEONE... with all the thousands of people that must have seen him while he was running this campaign. It seems implausible that he could have kept the former Jedi-identity secret while becoming a major political leader.
     
  9. Sara_Kenobi

    Sara_Kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 21, 2000
    It's got to be Mace. He was way to quick to defend Dooku's character to Padme in Palpatine's office.
     
  10. Darth Sin

    Darth Sin Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 1999
    I don't understand why this is so difficult.

    There is no doubt in my mind that Dooku was the one that masqueraded as Sifo-Dyas and ordered the clones.

    I really wish Lucas had left the scene in the library about the "Lost Twenty", for this would help in this argument I believe.

    Why do I believe it is Dooku, it is because there are many clues pointing in his direction.

    Dooku left the Jedi order 10 years ago.

    The clones were commissioned 10 years ago

    Kamino was erased from the Jedi library archives. Yoda says that this had to be a Jedi. Who could that be??

    Sifo-Dyas was killed 10 years ago. His name is given for the order of the clones for the Republic. Sifo-Dyas being a Jedi was probably well known by Dooku. Dooku conveniently used the name of this Jedi at Kamino to try and throw off the Jedi

    Dooku is very wealthy, and as the EP II Visual dictionary states, he can field an army all on his own

    Personally I believe Dooku was the mastermind behind the creation of a clone army. He intended this army for himself to rebel against the Republic until he met Sidious. Just as the Geonosians are the master minds behind the Death Star; in like manner Dooku was the one who came up with the plans for a clone army.

    After joining the Sith, this army became Sidious army just as the droid armies of the Trade Federation became his through a deal.


    Darth Sin! :cool:
     
  11. Darth_Ozzy

    Darth_Ozzy Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 20, 2002
    AS far as Qui-Gon being a Sith, I believe it is very possible. After all, he was obviously having a falling out with the council, and he continually slaped them in the face. And, what better place to hide something , than in plain view.
     
  12. Darth_Ozzy

    Darth_Ozzy Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 20, 2002
    I see what all you people are saying about JANGO claiming to have been hired by Tyranus. And that is TRUE. But, think of this- Just because Jango was hired by tyranus, it does not mean he was hired by HIM to create a clone army. What he may have meant was that that was his last employer, and he could well have been hired by Tyranus to eliminate Padme, which he obviously was, and that is shown by his (dookus) interaction with nute gunray, indicating that he has told gunray he will eliminate the senator.
     
  13. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2000
    I would just like to point out that this exact same discussion is going on in the Official SIFO-DYAS thread.

    In that thread, I have recently pointed out that Sifo-Dyas can be neither Maul nor Qui-Gon, because they died exactly ten years ago, and the clone order wa splaced "almost ten years ago."

    Please reply in the appropriate thread. No offense intended, billydeewilliams, I'm just looking for as lively a discussion as possible, and hey, the more the merrier.
     
  14. Sith_Butters

    Sith_Butters Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    I really love this thread but I think we should look at it from a different angle please hear me out and give your feedback. I think to solve this mystery we need to follow the paper trail:

    The Kaminoans are in the business of creating clones (?Damn good ones?). I don?t feel that this race would simply dedicate 15 years of there life creating 1.2 million of the best clones they?ve ever made just from the request of 1 ?individual? without a payment up front. Even if you are a Jedi or a Sith they wouldn?t do it. We know their attitude can be based on the size of your ?pocket book?. It just isn?t logical, this army must have been paid for up front, but does a planet in the outer rim even except republic credits? Tatooine doesn?t. So how did this individual ?purchase? the clone army? Not with a VISA or on his good looks, it has to be deeper than that. I don?t know how much a clone army costs, but I can guarantee you it would take a pretty big chunk out of the Republics ?pocket book?. The Kaminoans even said the amount paid to Jango was ?considerable?, they?re not paying for him without charging someone else. I just don?t believe the individual in question has been saving up his change. I also don?t believe that Palpatine just wrote a check to the Kaminoans. The Republic would have to know where it?s funds were going. We are so busy going round and round about who is who and what identity belongs to who, we are forgetting the way a purchase of this size would really take place. Please throw out any ideas on how this could happen, and don?t use the excuse ?The Kaminoans were under a Jedi mind trick?.
     
  15. Skywalk272

    Skywalk272 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 16, 2000
    THAT is a very good question. Where would anyone related to the Republic, Palpatine or Jedi, get the funds to do this ten years ago?

    I have a strong feeling that some body was able to profit very much off the Naboo blockade fiasco.

    Dooku has a large amount of inherited wealth, but would it be enough for an army? He could cover it up by lots of transactions with the varioes seperatists groups, and people would think he spent ALL his money putting together this confederacy.

    Perhaps only those first 200,000 were paid for up front, and the other million or so was to be paid for when completed?

    What I can't figure out is how anybody but Palpatine could profit from the Naboo thing, and even that had to do with politcal position not money. I can toss out that the TF probably lost a great deal of money, but where did it go?
     
  16. Darth Sin

    Darth Sin Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 1999
    Thank you!! This is one of the main reasons that I have no doubt that it is Dooku that commissions the clones.

    Though many do not like to use information from the Visual dictionaries; they do make for some very great info, incite and things that are actually factual.

    The EP II Visual dictionary says on page 48 in Dooku's data file; That he is the master of his family's fortune and one of the wealthiest men in the galaxy. He could field an army on his own resources.

    In this same file, it says that Dooku's teacher was Yoda. So we know this is true from the film, so the info saying that Dooku can purchase an army is likely true as well.

    Jango said a man named Tyranus hired him. This is Dooku!


    Darth Sin! :cool:
     
  17. TheChosen1

    TheChosen1 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 13, 2001
    Darth Sin hit it right on the head. I think people are over analizing things. When things are revealed in movies, there's a certain amount of setup so that the average movie-goer understands. They don't just whip out surprises so the audience goes "What the hell?" They reveal things in a way that makes audiences go, "of course!"

    Qui-Gon is not a Sith. Mace is a supporting character and the next movie will focus on Anakin, Padme, and Obi-Wan.
     
  18. rustybaseball

    rustybaseball Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 22, 2002
    Oh my goodness, so many interesting points.

    Firstly, the bit about Darth Maul having a lightsaber just slapped me in the face. I was so overwhelmed by how cool a double-bladed lightsaber was and how well Maul used it that I completely forgot that only Jedi or ex-Jedi have them! I don't know of this will play an important role in the future or not, but it is an INCREDIBLY interesting bit of information.

    Also, I must agree with the whole "purchasing" of the Clones Army. I would say the possible suspects with that much money are

    1. Sidious/Palpatine in the Senate
    2. Dooku and the Seperatists
    3. The Trade Federation

    I don't think Lucas would introduce yet another corporation into the story. It would just look stupid.
     
  19. darthsmozers

    darthsmozers Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2000
    Everyone just needs to take a step back and look at these characters.

    Darth Maul: He wasn't much more than an assassin...a poor excuse for palpy's apprentice, possible his first. Why is he a "poor excuse"? Sure, he kicks butt in fighting, but he was just a killing machine following orders. He got it handed to him. He was a minor character. And, it has been said Darth Maul is gone, caput, history from the saga.

    Qui-Gon Jinn: Though he had his doubts in the republic and often played the part of Jedi rebel, when it came down to it, he was just as innocent as the next guy. he cared for Amidala's life, he saw great potention in Anakin, and wanted to do all he could to get him trained...NOT because he's secretly in line with sidious or anyone else, but because, as Obiwan said, "if you followed the code youd be on the council." Quigon's a powerful jedi, with a strong heart...look at how he cared for Shmi. he's not sifo-dyas.

    Count Dooku: The most likely candidate out of the four, as he coul;d have posed as this Jedi, then either had him killed or, by happenstance, he died anyway. Count does indeed play both sides, and also goes by Tyrannus, so its possible.

    Mace Windu: This guy is the cream of the crop Jedi. he's not a bad guy. he won't betray anyone. He answered "NO" so strongly when obiwan asked if the coucil ever commissioned an army because he's defending the jedi council. He's immediately dismissing the idea because its totally false. He's a bad you-know-what, to be sure, but he's not a bad guy. He's not evil. nothing points to him as being such.

    Other ideas:
    Since it was originally going to be Sido-dius, a play on Sidious, it could be palps himself, or he could be using that jedi's name in secret, then oh, he happened to be killed ten years ago...interesting.

    thats....pretty much the only other idea. you know its dooku and sidious playing everyone against eachother....there's no reason to bring in mace=traitor and quigon=traitor just to make things interesting. Quigon was a sincere man, and the only reason he isnt mentioned in the OT is because there was no reason to....the movies captire only days in the lives of characters...maybe obiwan explained more to luke on the falcon or in the landspeeder...we dont have to know all of it..plus, why confuse the boy further?? And, Mace is the second best jedi in the galaxy. he's stern, stricter, but not evil.

    in closing, these ideas are wonderful, and yes, anything can happen. butthe trilogy is closing and the saga as a whole will be complete....its down to the choices anakin and padme make, events surrounding namely them, obiwan, and yoda...most others (maybe even padme) will die as heroes....there's no need to make a good guy who has shown no evil side into a mad guy in the final film..
     
  20. Randykin

    Randykin Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    Sifo-dyas Sifo-dyas!!! Sifo-dyas Sifo-Dyas!!! Ohhhhhhh Sifo-dyas!!! Rock me Sifo-Dyas!!!!

    Anywho.. followinf this "rule of two" theres no problem with Tyranus using the fake name just to buy the clones, he just lied, so in the end hes just Count Dooku/Darth Tyranus.

    Sifo-dyas was known to the jedi council, he coulndt have been Maul, Dooku, Qui-gon & not even Mace.

    Jango Fett worked for Dooku, the ordered clones where of Jango, Jango was ordered to be cloned. Sidius wants clones, Dooku works for Sidius. Sidius ask Dooku to somehow get the clones.

    If any question is to be asked is if it was Dooku or Sidius, but that dont matter, they're Master & Aprentice. Almost a team, and most surely since Sidius is a chicken and doesnt show his face, it was Dooku who ordered the clones.

    Nuff' said
     
  21. Sith_Butters

    Sith_Butters Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    We'll looks like you guys all have good points on my "funding question". I wasn't up on Dooku's finacial wealth. Well with all this evidence, I think I'll go with the following (who's with me?):

    1)I think I'm going to vote for team Dooku/Sidious as impersonating Syfo-Dyas for the purchase.
    2)From what darthsmozers said: Count Dooku: The most likely candidate out of the four, as he coul;d have posed as this Jedi, then either had him killed or, by happenstance, he died anyway.shows that in reality he was just another Jedi
     
  22. Darth_OlsenTwins

    Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    Billie Dee, wonderful, wonderful

    I think I have actually converted to the Sifo-Dyas is...somebody theory.

    I think that there is a traitor in the Jedi council (ive come a long way or im just tired). The only problem I have with this is a "hint" that there is a traitor. Well actually the hint of the deleted records is probably good enough. "Only a jedi could alter the records". You know what Im buyin it. There is a traitor and Sifo-Dyas is somebody.
     
  23. rustybaseball

    rustybaseball Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 22, 2002
    Also, remember Dooku refers to Mace as "old friend". Could this imply that maybe Dooku and Mace are working together, or that perhaps Dooku maybe tried to get Mace to leave the Jedi Order and join him?

    I remember George Lucas saying that Mace Windu was one of the first character names he ever came up with, implying that Mace has been around since the original drafts of the story. Often, Original Drafts are incredibly different than the original. I'm sure Obi-Wan, Yoda,, Anakin, etc. hwere around then, but why keep a character like Mace around for so long if he didn't have an important role to play in the story?

    Just a thought...
     
  24. DeltaJedi

    DeltaJedi Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2002
    For the record, my own personal theory on the matter is that Dooku impersonated Sifo-Dyas after his death in order to raise a clone army and come back after the Republic. I think the timing fits, the money situation (Dooku being able to fund it out of pocket) fits, and the situation surrounding the use of Jango Fett fits.

    The missing piece of information is why Dooku left the Jedi order. That's central to why he would want to raise an army and come back to conquer things. Otherwise, it just has to be assumed that he and Sidious have had this planned out for some time, and that he left the Jedi in order to further the plans of galactic domination of Palpatine.

     
  25. davec53

    davec53 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 17, 2002
    well, here is something you don't see people do too much...i'm going to make an argument, and then i'm going to argue against it!! :)

    here goes...

    in TPM, we get to meet Palpy, Sidious, and Maul, but we know very little about their pasts...a prequel to the prequel anyone?? ;) anyways, someone mentioned the fact that Maul had a lightsaber, and only Jedi or former Jedi have them. BUT, in ANH, Luke gets his blade BEFORE he becomes a Jedi, from a Jedi. So, is it safe to say that a non-Jedi could get a light saber from a Jedi or former Jedi?? If so, and if Sidious is Maul's master, doesn't it sorta seem like maybe Sidious used to be a Jedi, and he fell to the dark side and took an apprentice?

    Now, perhaps his "fall" to the dark side was his "death"...TPM is about 10 years before AOTC, and we have no idea at all about how long Sidious has been around, BUT, if you watch in AOTC, when Obi is sending the message to Mace and Yoda, doesn't he say that he was under the impression that Syfo-dyas died OVER 10 years ago, even though he tells the Kaminoins that Syfo-dyas died ALMOST 10 years ago? hmmmm....

    also, we know that Sidious looks all mangled up in the later movies, like something terrible has happened to him...perhaps this happened when he "died"?? Also, this may not mean anything at all, but when we first see the hologram message from the Emperor in ESB, does anyone else remember that he looked a LOT stranger than he did in ROTJ?? like with big puffy eyes and stuff??

    and now, my arguement against my argument is this...i have really been buying into the argument being made around here that Palpy is a Sidious clone...more or less a puppet for Sidious to use to manipulate the Senate. However, if he is a clone, and if Sidous used to be Syfo-dyas, then Palpy would have to LOOK like Syfo-dyas, and everyone would have to recognize him.

    My theory, which is VERY far fetched, is that Syfo-dyas was a Jedi that ordered the clone army without the permission of the Council, which caused a big ruckus, which led to the fall of Syfo-dyas to the dark side, where he became Darth Sidious, and he took Darth Maul, a young warrior with whom the force was strong,...(deep breath!!) as an apprentice, took over Palpatine's mind so he could control the Senate and cause everything to go to hell, but Maul died so he was up a creek, but fortunately found a wayward Jedi named Dooku to take his place at his side, but....POODOO!! i've just now run myself square into another wall!! there is NO questioning that Dooku hired Jango as the clone-model, under the name Tyrannous (sp?), so that doesn't fit in the timeline!! ACK!! i need some sleep!!;)

    So, i'm not sure where this leaves everything, but i just wanted to throw this out there and see what ya think!! :)

    has it been 3 years yet??

     
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