The ULTIMATE Mystery - Can YOU solve it?

Why couldn't Darth Maul be Syfo-Dyas? If Maul had undergone a radical transformation in appearance (Anakin to Darth Vader)from Syfo-Dyas to Darth Maul, it is quite possible that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan wouldn't have recognized him.

Maul killed Syfo-Dyas, the same way Vader killed Anakin. From a certain point of view. This would establish that characters "duality".

Syfo-Dyas erased the Kamino info. from the database, left the order of the Jedi, placed the order for the clones and assumed a new identity as Maul.

Dooku / Tyranus is working in concert with Sifo-Dyas / Maul as well as Palpy / Sidious and its Tyranus who recruits Jango Fett and sends him to Kamino after Maul has made it known he wants to order some clones.

Maul - "Umm, yeah I'll take 6,000,000,000 clones and a large fry and a chocolate sith shake".

It does cause 3 "sith" to exist, but was Tyranus really a sith at that point? Did he step in after Maul got bisected?

 

How about we think about major characters who don't have dual identities. Like, Luke Skywalker, for instance. He is a MAJOR MAJOR character and we only have one name for him! What's up with GL on this one?! Why did he overlook this one?!!! But wait!! Of course, why didn't we see this before, there is indeed a duality associated with Luke. Luke posseses perhaps one of the most profound dualities one can have: He has a twin! So, in my opinion, GL makes this duality theme quite important to his saga.

 

Couldn't it be possible that whoever went to the Kaminoans to order the clone army was just using the name Syfo-Dyas knowing that the Kaminoans would have no idea that he was killed? But why use a Jedi name anyways? Like Dexter said, the size of your pocketbook is what matters to the Kaminoans. So anyone with the right amount of credits could go an purchase clones. There has to be more to that name than we know.

The Jedi Council recognizes the name when Obi Wan tells them what he has learned, meaning that they knew him and he really did exist. So there could be no dual role being played out here by Mace, Maul or Qui Gon. I mean, if Sifo-Dyas was on the Council, he would be sitting in with Mace, it would be hard to occupy two Council chairs at once. I think Maul would be too young to be on the Council. And for Qui Gon, the same answer applies as that of Mace.
Whoever went to Kamino to order the Clones just used that name. The question here is 'Just who is Syfo-Dyas'?

The fact that Tyrannus involved Jango in the cloning process doesn't necessarily mean that he was the one to go to the Kaminoans. He could have just been working on his master's orders of findind them a superior cloning specimen.

Duality roles aside, all signs point to Sidious. The Kaminoans were expecting a Jedi to eventually come and check on the progress of the clones, but they were not necessarily expecting Obi Wan.

Think of this: A man shows up on your planet dressed in a hooded cloak and orders clones saying he is Syfo-Dyas and doing this on behalf of the Jedi Council for the Republic. Now, if you have never seen a Jedi before you would assume that this hooded/cloaked individual is a Jedi, no reason not to believe him. Then years later another hooded/cloaked individual shows up and declares he is Jedi also. Why couldn't the first Jedi to show up saying he is Syfo-Dyas be Sidious? All you know is that they were both hooded/cloaked individuals both claiming to be Jedi.

We just need to find out who Syfo-Dyas is.

 

I did actually refer to luke in my orignal post on this thread but you make a good point beatzello.

Rememeber: 'Nothing happens by accident.' Why did GL have luke and Leia be twins at all? Why not just have them be brothers and sisters? Again, it was a carefully thought out thematic decision. This is why is consider Star Wars to have such depth. This is why we can have these discuassions. No thematic decision is made lightly, they are all very thouroughly thought out and carefully planned to reflect, complement and play off each other.

This is why GL is a genius. Period.

Adumar, i agree totally with what you say about Maul, i have been theorizing about this for some time. However, i give it no time at all until someone posts some explanation as to why this cannot be so due to something they read in the EU or whatever. So, i'm sorry, you will come into flak for suggesting a perfectly legitimate explanation.

 

Wow, this thread has exploded [face_shocked]


o]||||{ -------SaberSlinger-------

 

Here's a little linear thinking on this idea...

There have been many dualities in Star Wars character lore. Sifo-Dyas (spelling anyone?) has not been revealed other than that he(or she) was a Jedi Master. All dualities have been done in concealment of the truth for both good and bad reasons.

Attack of the CLONES. Clones. It is entirely possible that a character was cloned and used as Sifo-Dyas. This is not how Lucas typically operates, however.

Padme concealed her identity for the good of the Naboo, 1 point for the Light side.

Obi-Wan was Ben to protect Luke, 1 more point for the Light side.

Yoda conceals himself until Luke figures it out, 1 more point for the Light Side.

Anakin becomes Vader, 1 point for the Dark Side.

Sidious is Palpatine, 1 more point for the Dark side.

Count Chocula is Lord Tyranus Rex, 1 more point for the Dark side.

that makes it a 3-3 tie so far.

We know that Vader became Anakin again, which means that to even things out a good guy, must become a bad guy to follow Lucas' dual-rule.

With all of this in mind, it can be either Qui-gon or Mace acting against the Republic. or, Was Maul originally a Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas, and became one of the Lost twenty hence his "death" 10 years ago.

Star Wars is about redemption. It would make sense then, that Sifo-Dyas, perpetrated an act against the corruption of the Republic by ordering a Clone army be constructed to save the Republic from the corrupt Trade Federation, because he was a "good guy" who could foresee the corruption, but not powerful enough to see himself being deceived and that the clone army was eventually going to help the rise of the Empire.

Qui-Gon Jinn. Powerful enough to foresee Anakin's great power, but not his becoming a Dark Lord of the Sith. Jedi Master, working under an assumed name (Sifo-Dyas) under that instruction of Senator Palpatine, a Dark Lord of the Sith with incredible powers of persuasion.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Qui-Gon's crying out in AOTC when Anakin begins his fall to the Dark Side by killing the Tusken Raiders is proof that "failure is now complete".

Ahhh, I love duality....

 

Yes it has, but we need more posters such as yourself SaberSlinger. You seemed to understand what all this was about.

 

I wasn't making a race issue. But alot of people do.

I know Lando is a good guy. But still, IMO, it would make Lucas look bad if Mace was a traitor.

Now IMO Yoda and Mace and the council who is left will look like traitors to the Republic, and that will start the purge.

But if Mace says, "No Jedi authorized..."
I believe it.

Why does alot of good Jedi's always get blamed? (Mace and Qui-Gon)

Isn't Dooku and Anakin enough?

 

Darth Maul i think plays a larger role in this movie besides just being a bad guy for the Jedi to fight in TPM. In what other movie has GL just presented us with a throw away character like Maul?

Remember the look Qui-Gon gave Maul right before Maul ran him through? What is that about?

THe look is in the movie for a reason. I guarentee that,

 

EVERYONE read ONLY_2's post. (Just above this one).

It is an exceptional piece of reasoning and adds so much to this debate.THIS is how GL's mind works. It is a very, very intersting idea.

Thanks Only_2. Anymore ideas on this subject, post 'em here. They are very much appreciated.

I will give this alot of thought.

 

I dont think the Maul = Syfo-Dyas theory works. If Yoda and Mace know about a Jedi (Syfo-Dyas) turned Sith (Maul) then why the confusion about the Sith in PM. Also, Maul says to Sidious, "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have our revenge." Meaning the Jedi do not know about Maul. There really was a Syfo-Dyas and they really beleive him to be dead.

As far as the duality theme goes, it is definately present in most things in the movie. Just remember the quote from Yoda, "The dark side clouds everything". Why can't Sidious take on more than one role. We already see him as The Sith Lord and as a Senator. He is seen as the Chancellor, and he was also a mentor to Anakin. Is it possible that he was also a Jedi? He is very adept at manipulting them and knows there most intimate details and seems to know there thought. He's pratically guiding them without there knowledge.

 

STOP

WITH

THE

RACIAL

TALK

PLEASE

IT IS STUPID

DIE HARD HAD BLACK BAD GUYS IN FACT ONE OF THEM WAS SHREDED UP IN A PLANE PROPELLER

THERE ARE BLACK BAD GUYS IN ALMOST EVERY TERRORIST MOVIE AND THEY ALL DIE HORRID DEATHS

STOP CALLING LUCAS RACIST

ITS ALL PART OF A STORYLINE

NO ONE

CARES!!!!

BUT I GUESS EVERYONE CARES

BECAUSE ITS ALL I HEAR ABOUT

MAYBE I SHOULD STOP SCREAMING

BUT I WONT

THIS IS A MESSAGE BOARD

I WILL GET MY OPINIONS ACROSS

AND MY OPINION IS

WHO EVER CALLS LUCAS RACIST

GIVE ME YOUR ADDRESS

I WILL PERSONALLY FLY TO YOUR HOUSE AND VISIT YOU WITH BASEBALL BAT IN HAND

CRITICS AND NEWS REPORTS SHOULD HONESTLY DIE

I WOULD LOVE TO DO THE KILLING

OHH LUCAS IS RACIST

DARTH MAUL HAD BLACK FACE PAINT

OH GOD

SO RACIST

CORUSCANT HAS BLACK NIGHT SKIES

SO RACIST

Ill stop because I'm probably about to get banned. Sorry about that.

I would just so like to cuss my lungs out right now.

 

obhavekenobi78 - Obviously Yoda and Mace knew that Syfo-Dyas left the order. Did those two ever see Maul? Nope. If S/D has undergone a transformation, he wouldn't look anything like he did when he was a jedi. He was reborn as a sith apprentice.

 

Maul's race looks just like he does minus the tat's. Qui-Gon would have recognized him and Maul would have recognized Qui-Gon, right? And take a look at Sidious' transformation, it's slow.

Anyway, Maul may play a bigger role, but I can't see him being a former Jedi and Qui-Gon not recognizing him, especially after dualling him twice.

 

I SAY MACE WINDU IS LANDO CALRISSIAN'S FATHER!!!
His real name is EMAC DuWIN...he impregnated an Armenian wench named Delia Calrissian
...she kept her maiden name after Emac joined " ...a pack of rebellious youth called Jedi something or other....led by some young slug called Judas? Yahoo?...something like that..."

 

billydeewilliams, please understand that I totally agree with the dual identities concept that Lucas has shown continually throughout the saga.

I do like the idea of Maul possibly being Sifo-Dyas; but again as I said in one of my previous posts here, how do you get around Mace saying that,

"There is no doubt that the mysterious warrior was a Sith" to Yoda, of which he obviously agreed? This line seemed to indicate that the Jedi had enough to know that Maul was a Sith, and that he was not someone else. Now of course I ask, how did they know this other than the fact that Qui-Gon was killed, and he believed Maul was a Sith, and the witness of Obi-Wan.

Did they confiscate the body of Maul and his lightsaber from the shaft??


If Maul turns out to have been Sifo-Dyas, I will be the first here to brag on you for this wonderful theory and thus reality!

Mace being Sifo-Dyas??!! I will not even go there. I just cannot accept this, and I will not explain why. These ideas of Mace being a traitor and/or Sith is beyond me

Now I do wish that Qui-Gon's name had been used as the name of the person that ordered the clones. I think this would have been much more powerful, and imagine what this would have done to Obi-Wan, especially after what he hears from Dooku.

Lastly, I do think all the evidence points to Dooku masquerading as Sifo-Dyas.

However, there is the possibility that Dooku forced Sifo-Dyas to order the clones, then killed him thereafter. This would have been Dooku's proof to Sidious that he truly had become his servant and apprentice.

I do also believe there is a link between Qui-Gon being killed and then we have a Jedi Master named Sifo-Dyas being killed. I wonder who was killed first??

If Sifo-Dyas was killed after Qui-Gon, then I do believe Dooku plays a part in his death if not the actual killer. Does this ring a bell?? Count Dooku is not a murderer! As Qui-Gon was killed by a Sith, Count Dooku becomes a Sith and murders a Jedi, Sifo-Dyas


Darth Sin!

 

Yes Adumar, that's right. The possibility it being Maul is a distict possibility. Syfo-dyas left the order, underwent total transformation (ala Vader) and Yoda told peole he was 'killed' adding a fabulous piece of duality to the soryline when Obi Wan uses the same lie about luke's father.
Remember how Maul's face paint is splattered all over Anakin's ceiling in TPM? And over the ceiling in Luke's house in ANH? Why? Is Maul really an peripheral character?

 

NO

THAT WOULD BE RACIST YOU RACIST FREAK OF NATURE!



...nice observation.

 

Sabersparx -

You have no clue what you are saying. I don't know if Lucas is racist or not. I don't know his head and neither do you.

I'm a white male and I feel that if Lucas made Mace a traitor, it would make him look bad (it doesnt' make him a racist, just look like it)

So my gut feeling is that Mace is a good guy for this reason. I know that might sound really silly, but I think I'm right.

Here is what we know about Mace:

1) He's a great and loyal Jedi.

2) He now believes in Anakin (as the chosen one) And Anakin now believes in him.

3) He's concerned and humble that his and Yoda's force sense is dimininshing.

4) He has a different color lightsaber (big freakin deal)

5)He will die in III. He will die like a soldier and "not a punk."


He's not a traitor. I don't know who is Syfo-Dias. If you use Billy Dee theory it could be Maul or Qui-Gon. I don't believe his theory and tend to agree with more with Darth Sin.

We'll see what happens.

 

Yes. I know what I'm saying.

If Lucas made Mace a bad guy, he would NOT be the only one.

Look at terrorist flicks. PLENTY of black bad guys. Plenty. And they die in masses.

If you think Lucas is racist for making a black guy...wow.

Just wow. I'm impressed that people can go that far.

Nothing against you at all. I just think this whole race think is just silly.

 

Billy Dee I truly understand about the duality thing. For all the people saying that Sidious is not Palpy for this reason must take something into account.

Has Lucas ever introduced a false duality. Meaning that has he ever made it obvious that two people share a duality (Palpy, Sidious), but then spun it around to say that they are different people. Hasn't that duality already been implicitly established by GL. This would be a deviation, would it not.

 

Billy Dee - thanks. Your original post really got me thinking. Maul was a fall guy. He was a force-attuned brute, not a master. He let an apprentice kill him rather easily. So was Jango to some extent. Jango got killed rather quickly, I thought he'd at least last until the next film.

Qui-gon is the crux of this whole trilogy. He found Anakin. He was killed by Maul.

Or maybe, just maybe, He was sent to Kamino to order the clone army by Supreme Chancellor Valorum!

"The situation has become much more complicated..."

Maybe that statement from EP 1 now has more meaning...

It's all about the duality...

 

Sin - you make good points, but why would Dooku have to masquerade as Syfo-Dias? He already hired Jango using the name Tyrannus - he also already has a dual identity.

I do like the idea of Qui-Gon ordering the clones and the emotional impact on Obi-Wan but that dog doesn't hunt - there's no way Qui-Gon ordered them.

I never thought I'd consider it, but I'm starting to think Mace is the traitor.


o]||||{ -------SaberSlinger-------

 

Sabersparx

I think it's silly too. But thats the world were in. People get offended way too much.

Again, what I posted before is my beliefs on why Lucas won't make a Mace a traitor.

 

Add a diagram to my previous discussion have I:

[image=http://www.stylus72.com/graphics/blue_yoda_diagram.jpg]

Three there are, not two.
And there colors are the red, the green and the blue.
From chewycharmy we know this to be true.
Peace and love unto you.

AHBY