Senate The US Politics discussion

I don’t understand why everyone falls into the trap that @J-Rod and all the Trump people engage in. It’s a very obvious tactic and people always fall for it, every time. They will engage on any topic, in painful detail, besides the one that currently matters. Ideally, he’d like to engage on topics of his choice, but anything besides concentration camps for children will do. That is how propaganda works. That Sinclair message? It’s talking about being tough on immigration and liberals. It’s not talking about children stolen from their parents and shipped anonymously around the country.

 

@AhsokaSolo You can't argue with a fascist (on the topics that matter).

 

You literally cannot. All decent people just need to focus on stopping this.

 

@AhsokaSolo I should probably listen to your advice (and my own).

The problem is I don't know how to live in a democracy where citizens can't talk to one another.

 

Everyone can talk to each other, but the point is the topic. If someone refuses to engage on the topic, don’t let them distract you. It’s a manipulative tactic. It is not innocent.

 

I'd recommend re-reading the first item on Bacon's table a few pages earlier.

 

Talking is not the issue. Listening is.

 

That is is.

Note also that listening and, for that matter, understanding why something is said does not mean agreeing.

 

@Lordban Half the time I don't know if @J-Rod is passing on half-baked propaganda for the purposes of distraction or if he really believes what he's reading.

 

I think he does sincerely believe in what he is reading. That's what scares me.

 

If you’re the only one listening in the conversation, you’re accomplishing zero.

 

That depends on the purpose of the conversation. But yes, for the purpose of exchanging on political views in such a thread, everybody should be listening.

 

I think we're all tired of you repeating yourself.
It's you prerogative to not not respond - which is fine by me, honestly. But pretending that you already have to avoid answering tough questions? You'll be called out on that every time.
For example, you've repeatedly dodged explaining how the Republican-controlled Congress and Trump are just powerless to do anything and the minority party is at fault for... not actually bring in power?

And let's address your latest statement. My actual question to you was why fascists and white nationalists and neo-Nazis are pleased as punch with the Trump administration. Let's see how you handled it:
1) you moved the goalposts to talk about voting.
2) you engaged in a bothsides/whataboutism.
3) you brought up a statement that was already shown to be factually incorrect every time you've brought it up, already been refuted by other posters now, and will be again when you repeat the same statement.

I'll credit you with one thing: actually admitting that fascists supported Trump. But you refuse to examine why that is in any way.

 

Where one person is disingenuously changing the topic as a distraction from something currently relevant and very important, they are engaging in bad faith in propaganda. Just by listening to their distraction and engaging with it, they are accomplishing their goal and you are doing nothing but being distracted. Debate the definition of fascism any time. It doesn’t matter to these kids and it does nothing to move the needle of public sentiment toward reuniting these kids with their families.

 

Problem with politics many of us have entrenched ideas that we wont change or its very hard. Some of us its just one or two ideas we compromise on. As such debates can prove somewhat pointless.

All of us, including me will be guilty of it to some degree over some issue of another.

 

I think people underestimate how much a part of Trump in particular and white supremacy in general are embedded in the identities of his supporters at this point. White supremacy came long before Trump, but he weaponized it and gave it a face, instead of being somewhat more diffuse.

Going back on that, even in part, is an extremely difficult thing. You're asking someone like @J-Rod to commit an act of cognitive dissonance to an extent that few of us are able to comprehend. Donald Trump is a core part of who @J-Rod is now. He'll rationalize away Trump's words and actions as often as necessary and to whatever extent is necessary to maintain his identity as he knows it. I'm not saying there isn't or couldn't be a breaking point, but I don't think it's going to be come unless and until it involves @J-Rod's own family or seeing people he relates with on a similar level dealing with the consequences of Trump's actions in a way that can't be rationalized away. I think that's very unlikely, however.

@J-Rod is maintaining his core self by explaining everything away. To go back on that would be almost like a self-amputation. It can be done, but not without extreme pain and difficulty.

 

It depends on the context. In the instance that it's a southern old grandma saying it, "God bless your heart" more or less means you're a ****show.

 

Bless Donald Trump’s heart.

 

That said, for all the flak he's earned here, J-Rod did participate in a war with a regime significantly closer to fascism than Trump's is - although it was missing a key component - the populist politics which are integral to fascism are hard to implement effectively in a society that was still largely tribal in its structures and with a ruling party emanating from a minority in the country.

Not that I'm paying much of a compliment to Trump's regime by pointing out they're farther from fascism than Hussein's regime was. They just happen not to have established a single-party dictatorship and not to be organizing themselves in a manner permitting such a takeover. The populist basis, strong nationalism and institutionalized racism are all present. The takeover of the economy is absent - and unnecessary.

 

I would compare Trump to Peron, but honestly, I'm not sure Peron is actually worse. Peron at least fought for economic equality and political enfranchisement. Trump has just built his way to the top by capitalizing and expanding upon inequality and political disengagment.

EDIT: please don't take this is an endorsement of Peron. I'm just saying even by comparison he still makes Trump look kinda bad

 

According to thehill.com, Trump is going to stop prosecuting parents that cross the border with their children. Thank jeebus. Apparently the American public wasn’t as receptive to the state kidnapping children as Trump hoped, so they’re totally caving to “liberals” and their “faux outrage.”

http://thehill.com/latino/393474-of...uting-migrant-parents-with-children-at-border

 

I know several people who actively supported this, and many more than made excuses for this. So what effectively just happened was Donald Trump pissed off moderates by doing something totally heinous and then pissed off his base for being, in their eyes, a "coward." These are the few times they'll criticize him (ie Ann Coulter's outrage over the lack of a wall).

Honestly with November just a few months away, this is pretty well-timed. If the Democrats don't take back the House and stand pretty equal ground in the Senate, they are exposing a new level of their own incompetence because they have more than enough to work with.

 

Trump’s base is a cult. They’ll literally support anything he does. That is beyond obvious at this point. Still, they’re aware of moderates. Independents and a few republicans aren’t part of the cult, and those are the people that were as horrified as “liberals” by this. But yeah, I have family members that defended this. I tell them to their faces to eat poo if they support interning brown children in camps stolen from their parents.