PT The Value of Vader

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by JoeyArnold, Nov 19, 2012.

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How Valuable was Vader?

Sideous would have died without Vader 2 vote(s) 33.3%
Vader & Sideous were serious business partners 1 vote(s) 16.7%
Vader was not as valuable as Sideous said he was 2 vote(s) 33.3%
The Clone Troopers were more valuable to Sideous than Vader was 1 vote(s) 16.7%
Vader was just one of the many secret apprentices of Sideous 2 vote(s) 33.3%
Vader was just a weak fallen jedi in a black suite 0 vote(s) 0.0%
10 out of 10: Vader was the most valuable thing Sideous had 1 vote(s) 16.7%
5 out of 10: Sideous gives Vader an average score 1 vote(s) 16.7%
Priceless. Vader was priceless to SIdeous 1 vote(s) 16.7%
0: Sideous never really cared too much for Vader 2 vote(s) 33.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. JoeyArnold Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 3
    Anakin was not spying on Sidious. Anakin was keeping Sidious accountable.
  2. tsunami1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 1
    ...Eh?

    In ROTS, the Council (well, Obi-Wan, on behalf of the Council) explicitly ask Anakin to discreetly gather intel on the Chancellor. Anakin does not want to do this, as he feels it will be a betrayal of his friendship with Palpatine.

    Or is this more information you've received directly from Wookieepedia?
  3. Darth_Kiryan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2009
    star 4
    Anakin is incredibly vulnerable. Palpatine played in that, and made sure that Anakin always came to him for advice. You see that in Episode II. Hell, you even see it in episode III. Why do you think that in almost every Coruscant scene, Anakin is practically with Palpatine.

    Sidious is a master at deception, and manipulation. It is not hard for him to use Anakin's fears against him. Hell, the Jedi never really accepted him as a whole anyway, Mace is proof enough of that, hell, even Obi-wan early rejection of him beofre Qui-gon's death in Phantom Menace is proof enough as well.He found more acceptance and confidence with Sidious/Palpatine because Sidious was always there, period.

    Anakin's fall to the dark side is the easiest thing to understand.
  4. Darth_Kiryan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2009
    star 4
    WHAT?

    Anakin didn't want to spy on Palpatine, he was basically his father, he says that much
  5. JoeyArnold Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 3
    Anakin thought he was told to spy on Sidious. But that is not what he was told to do. It only sounded like a bad thing. But the jedi needed to keep Sidious accountable because Sidious was getting too powerful.
  6. Darth_Kiryan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2009
    star 4
    No, Anakin was told to spy on him, there is no "ifs" or "buts" about it. He had to spy on him even if he didn't want too.
  7. JoeyArnold Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 3
    No. Anakin was not suppose to spy on Sidious in a bad way. Anakin thought it was a bad thing because it sounded like tattle tailing. It sounded like betraying a friend. The council were only trying to make things better and they were trying to unveil the shroud of the dark side and they had to look for answers and so it was not a bad kind of spying. If it was not a bad kind of spying, then I would rather not call it spying at all. I would want to call it investigating.
  8. Darth_Kiryan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2009
    star 4
    how else are you not supposed to spy.
  9. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Darth Sidious would have zapped Mace Windu with Force/sith lightning anyways, he didn't need anakin skywalker's lightsaber to save him from that/it!!!!
  10. tsunami1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 1
    He kinda did, actually. Windu was swinging to take Sidious's head off, before Anakin decided his own need was greater than that of the galaxy's. If Anakin hadn't taken Windu's hand, Sidious would have been pallie fertiliser - he was counting on Anakin to make exactly that move, calling his bluff, if you will.
  11. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    No, he could have just killed/zapped Master mr. Mace Windu with his force/sith lightning, besides, Anakin Skywalker saving Darth Sidious and putting his own needs greater than that of the galaxy's kind of ruins the purpose of Luke Skywalker being A New Hope/the only hope for the galaxy, because, had Luke and Leia Skywalker twins never been conceived, yeah, the Galactic Empire and Order 66 never happens/happened!!!!!
  12. tsunami1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 1
    Sidious had just spent a good minute trying to zap Windu with Sith lightning, only to have every single ounce of it reflected back. Windu, with saber in hand, was going to kill Sidious, there and then, and there was nothing Sidious could do about it, except play the weak old man to Anakin and pray Anakin comes to his aid. That was the only trick Sidious had left up his sleeve.

    Your second point is so poorly written that I'm not gonna bother trying to decipher it.
  13. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Do you want me to be more specific/less-poorly-more clear and concisely-written, on the second post??? I can explain it better if i want to!!!
  14. tsunami1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 1
    Sod it, I could do with a laugh. Knock yourself out.
  15. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Let's watch the personal comments, people.
  16. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    First of all, the Emperor Darth Sidious zapped/killed Mace Windu with his/the Force/Sith Lightning........
  17. tsunami1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 1
    Whoa! Slow down there, Roadrunner, I'm not sure I can keep up!

    Oh, and in the spirit of being deliberately pedantic, he wasn't the Emperor then. He was just the Supreme Chancellor. As you were...
    Darth_Kiryan likes this.
  18. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Stop being sarcastic, and/or nitpicky!!!!!!!!!

    \
  19. tsunami1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 1
    Translate this for me. That's all I wanted.
  20. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    If Luke and Leia (the skywalker twins) were never conceived, then Anakin Skywalker wouldn't save the darth sidious from mace windu, because the only reason that he did that was to save the/his pregnant wife, and keep the bad guy/villian alive so that he could save her!!!!!!
  21. tsunami1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 1
    I think you should be banned from using the '/' key.

    As an answer to your post - if there were no Skywalker buns in the Amidala oven, would Anakin have had visions about her dying, prompting him to move heaven and earth to find a way to prevent it, and leaving him open to the subtle manipulations of the Chancellor?

    To clarify. Padme isn't pregnant. Anakin doesn't have a vision of her. They still maintain their secret marriage, but the only paranoia Anakin has is the Council finding out. Sidious still wants Anakin as his apprentice, but he doesn't have the opening that's presented with Anakin's increasing desperation. He bides his time, trying to insinuate that the Council don't trust Anakin - a line that doesn't have quite the effect it should, as Anakin isn't desperate for the title of Master in order to further his research to save Padme (because, remember, he has no reason to think her death is imminent).

    Meanwhile, the Council further their investigations into the mystery Sith Lord, as Obi Wan goes to Utapau to defeat Grievous. Kenobi returns, and the Council, having already had assurances from the Chancellor that he will sue for peace as soon as peace's last obstacle, Grievous, has been removed, seek his retraction of emergency powers. Palpatine refuses. The Council immediately begin to suspect the worst, and recall Yoda and the rest of the High Council from the field to discuss the matter, fearing that something is amiss. Even Anakin realises that it's wrong that the Chancellor hasn't relinquished his command. The full might of the Council, alongside the Loyalist Committee, go to confront the Chancellor.

    Palpatine is then forced to;
    A) reveal his identity in a desperate attempt to maintain control, unleashing himself upon all contained within his office. Many innocent senators die, possibly including Padme. Even some of the Council die. But even the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith is no match for all of them, especially an Anakin driven by grief and rage at the death of his beloved, and at the betrayal of his father figure. Sidious is cut down, and Anakin, too dangerous to be cut loose, is counselled by his best friend (Kenobi), Yoda and Windu, and learns to let go of his hate, anger and rage...or;
    B) sacrifice his emergency powers peacefully. He does exactly as the Senate request, sues for peace; which the Confederacy, no longer under the tyrannical and bloodthirsty rule of Dooku and Grievous, accept, having no real threat to counter with. Palpatine then leaves his post as Chancellor, and has to devise another way to seduce Skywalker, or find another apprentice, and come up with a new way to subvert the Galaxy to his sole rule. This might take years - he is not, after all, a young man, and possibly may never come to fruition. Meanwhile, Anakin continues with the Jedi until such time as he and Padme do conceive. He's still in touch with Palpatine, but there is no immediate threat, no vision - Anakin resigns peacefully from the Jedi Order, and goes off to live with Padme in the Naboo Lake Country, to raise his child like the father he never had.
  22. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    No, I just have certain nervous OCD memorization and writing habits with the '/', so, Luke and Leia Skywalkers are the very reason that the Galactic Empire/Sith Empire ever/even existed in the first place, therefore, they were not the last/only hopes to the galaxy!!!!
  23. tsunami1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 1
    ...No, that's not right at all. Just because they may have had an indirect responsibility for it, doesn't mean they weren't the only hopes. They were the only people left with the Force potential to beat the Emperor after the Jedi Purge (aside, of course, from Anakin...).
  24. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4

    There are a whole list of problems and plot inconsistensies and plot holes with what you just said, I don't know how to respond, I don't know what to say; first of all, other users had told me that Luke and Leia Skywalker's conception was best for the galaxy and that the Galactic Empire would have been formed either way, even without him, and you're are contradicting them and that whole concept/idea..............

    Second of all, why were Jedi Knights/Force-sensitives/people with force potential needed to defeat the Galactic Empire??? Old Grandpa Darth Sidious would have grown old and died anyway, a third plot hole in your entire idea/concept..........

    Fourth of all, no offense intended here dued bro, but what the hell/heck did Anakin skywalker becoming a jedi master have anything whatsoever in the world with saving his wife from childbirth death in pregnancy???
    Last edited by Lord Tyrannus, Nov 24, 2012
  25. tsunami1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 1
    Christ almighty.

    For starters. My post was a theory, not gospel. No offence intended, 'bro', but I couldn't care less if you think there were plot holes in it.

    Second. 'Old Grandpa' still had another thirty years left in him, at least. In the GFFA, your average human can reach 120 years old, easy. Plus the midi-chlorians, plus (if you care about the EU) clone bodies. 'Old Grandpa' had a lot of tyranny left in him.

    Third. Anakin knew that other Jedi had investigated the possibility of keeping people alive. Said information was sealed in restricted files within the Archive at the Jedi Temple. Said restricted files could be accessed only by Jedi carrying the rank of Master. That's why Anakin reacted with such anger when he was told by Windu that he would NOT be granted the rank of Master.
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