The Vong worldship discussion, version 2.0

Here it is. Discuss away

Jae Angel

 

It was empty

It was right to attack it

The lie was because Kyp doubted he could get support otherwise

 

I'd love to find the guy who wrote that summary and get him in here. ::Laughs evilly::

Jae Angel

 

Actually, you do not KNOW that it was empty. You only know that Kyp said "...there probably weren't many Vong aboard." (emphasis added) to which Jain replied, "Then why an empty worldship?" (emphasis in original). (SFBC hardcover edition, page 481.)

There is no conflict between Rebirth and SbS. Kyp never said it was empty, only that there probably were not many people on board. He had no way of knowing how many were actually there.

Kimball Kinnison

 

it was still being made. They wouldnt fill a ship that at any moment may have an accident and break up

 

I agree with ReaperFett. I don't care that Jaina Solo got her feelings hurt. The only thing I regret, for Kyp's sake, is the damage Kyp did to his already tarnished reputation. I wish there had been a way to succeed without earning the ire of the NR Military. But there wasn't.

Fortunately for Kyp, the military seems to have forgetten the slight, as they began to coordinate missions with Kyp in Star by Star.

Preemptive strikes have there value, as strategists throughout history have recognized. Luke and Mara's actions against the clones of Mount Tantiss was a preemptive strike, one that resulted in the deaths 20,000 being who had yet to commit a crime. Yet that was a valid target and a worthy action. The Jedi code supposedly forbids this, but Kyp shouldn't care. Kyp should do whats best for the galaxy, not whats best for the Jedi. Afterall, the Jedi serve the galaxy, not the Jedi.

Furthermore, I don't believe the Jedi code is as clear on this matter as some would like to pretend it is. After all, there are many instances of the Jedi fighting in wars. I don't think Yoda's words should be taken as infallible just because they were uttered by him. There are plenty of other instances where the Jedi code has been changed or thrown out all together.

As Kyp says in Conquest, "...the line between dark and light isn't as sharp as you're trying to make it, or exactly where you want to put it."

 

However, you have no proof that it was empty. All you have is that Kyp said it probably didn't have many Vong in it. He didn't know for sure, by his own statement (the use of probably shows doubt). It was Jaina who used the term empty.

There is no contradiction between the two books.

Kimball Kinnison

 

Exactly, ReaperFett. The Worldship was still in the "shipwomb", for crying out loud.

In order for the vong to have filled the WS with people, they needed people to put in it! Where are the people who are going to be put into it? They are on the other Worldships, which have all (or mostly) broken down!

The Vong certainly weren't about to use military vessels to move populations aboard. Oh no, the Vong planned to send the new worldship around to pick up the crippled ships' populations.

There. A logical reason for why the worldship was empty. I would like to see a logical reason for why it would have to have been full before it was completed.

 

yeah! Logic, logic, logic!

 

"As Kyp says in Conquest, "...the line between dark and light isn't as sharp as you're trying to make it, or exactly where you want to put it." - Spoken like a true Jedi who doesn't want to admit that his actions are leading him to the darkside. Kyp is acting in an Evil fashion, and for a Jedi acting in an evil way cannot be right. The Vong are evil because they destory peoples homes as well as innocent people - so how is Kyp any better then them now?

 

"There is no contradiction between the two books."

Yet there is a contradiction within the very sentence that says it was full. It says:

"...one filled with civilians and intended for Yuuzhan Vong young."

If it was intended for Vong young, why was it already full? The sentence says filled, which means full. It couldn't have been both, so clearly, the Worldship wasn't full. As someone noted in this arguments former thread, there is a distinction between "filled" and "occupied." It may have had people on board, but we have no idea how many. All we know is:

1)It wasn't finished, so it probably had no crew.

2)Since the ship was being grown, not built, no builders or technicians were needed.

3)It was intended to replace dying Worldships.

4)The Worldship never made any attempts to protect itself or flee, which implies there was nobody aboard activate such measures.

All of that favors the Worldship being empty, or nearly so. Why would they fill a Worldship before they could get the Vong from the dying Worldship it was meant to replace aboard?

 

I never said it had to be full, only that it was not empty, as ReaperFett has claimed. Quite honestly, you cannot use your own logic to contradict what a book says and call your logic the canon version. I am simply pointing out that there is no conflict between the two books, as others were claiming.

Kyp never stated that it was empty, Jaina did (in response to Kyp's comment). She made a generalization that Kyp's (and the SbS narrator's) comments do not hold out. There is no proof that it was empty and quite a bit of proof that it was at least partially filled.

Filled does not necessarily mean filled to capacity. In fact, by a strict definition, "filled" can refer to "not empty".

Like I said, there is no contradiction.

Kimball Kinnison

 

Yes, that makes perfect logical sense. You don't move into a house before it's completed, as RF said. The only populations onboard were the workers who were building it.

Jae Angel

 

"The only populations onboard were the workers who were building it."

If that. The ship was being grown, not built. There might not have been any workers on board.

 

Might have been an estate agent or two I suppose

 

I think filled does mean full, because I looked it up at dictionary.com right after you quoted the summary from SbS, because I wasn't sure about it myself. I also thought that filled could just mean "not empty". However, there's nothing to back that up in the definition of the word. Here's probably the closest definition to the case of the worldship:

To occupy the whole of; pervade: "Music filled the room."

How is that different than "civilians filled the worldship"?

There is a difference between occupied and filled.

Jae Angel

 

Face, we have seen other times that the Yuuzhan Vong have had workers helping with the growth and care of their technology (Belkadan, on board their ships, etc.). They don't seem to just let them do it themselves. How many farmers plant their crop and then just come back in a few months for the harvest?

Additionally, if it was still under construction (or should I say, under growth), it probably had not yet reached its full capacity. It could have been filled to its present capacity with workers who were helping it grow to a larger capacity. Again, no contradiction between the books.

Kimball Kinnison

 

So why would you take the first book over the second? If you want get techincal about it, the second book would be more accurite - since by that time the NR would be able to do some scans and stuff of the debree - and find out that the ship was full of civillians

 

I agree, NarundiJedi. If we're going to be picky about it, we should go with the real definition. Here is the definition of filled that I found:

"To occupy to full capacity: to fill a house with furniture"--From the "Random House Dictionary of the English Language, College Edition.

 

Face,

"to fill a house with furniture"

Are you saying that the house is completely filled and that there is no room for ANYTHING else in it? I've never seen a house filled with furniture if that is the case.

Kimball Kinnison

 

"It could have been filled to its present capacity with workers who were helping it grow to a larger capacity.

Workers may technically civilians, but they are helping to construct a military weapon, their lives are just as forfeit as every soldier. And the Worldship is a military target, despite arguments to the contrary. Military research, such as the Voxyn, is conducted aboard them. Soldiers, on active duty, are housed there.

 

So why would you take the first book over the second? If you want get techincal about it, the second book would be more

Ones a novel, ones a summary.

I used to play Games Workshop stuff. Two months after a game was released, the magazine ALWAYS had mistakes in the summary. Because one is detail, one is rushed together

 

If what you're saying is true, and you should take the first book over the second, then what you're really saying is that continuity is worthless and that it doesn't matter if the second book contradicts the first book. I believe it does because a summary isn't supposed to be bringing forth new information on an old book. It's supposed to SUMMARIZE the events of past books. The summary you're referring to isn't a book in and of itself. If it had said in the actual text of Star by Star that the worldship was filled and that Kyp had killed thousands of civilian workers THEN I'd believe it. However, I'm always going to believe a book over a summary, especially since we still don't know if the author of that summary had a slip-up or tried to say too much at once and ended up changing the events of the story.

Jae Angel

 

If the thing was still incomplete, and had workers trying to build the thing, then Kyp is NOT out of bounds.

Targeting shipbuilding capability is legitimate in time of war. See the way we went after German U-boat pens in World War II.

Killing the workers and the shipwomb means that it will be much harder for the vong to replace combat losses like the ones they took at Coruscant. Kyp did the right thing for the most part. He should NOT have lied, though.

The thing is, there is a very fair way to look at everything that has gone on:

1. Kyp properly read the Yuuzhan Vong early as sociopathic punks who could not be reasoned with. This is evident from what happened to Elegos, and their conduct at Ithor. When you have people who are killing anything crossing their path, you don't negotiate with them, you stop them.

2. Kyp did go off half-cocked in taking the Avengers to conduct hit-and-run operations. Skywalker was right to insist on intelligence gathering first. Still, some action was needed.

3. The late and unlamented Bork Fey'lya totally mishandled the Vong invasion, and things have gone to you-know-where in a you-know-what.

4. Corran Horn has, for some reason, an inability to admit that Kyp read the situation correctly from the start.

 

" Face,

"to fill a house with furniture"

Are you saying that the house is completely filled and that there is no room for ANYTHING else in it? I've never seen a house filled with furniture if that is the case."

Kimball, that was the example the dictionary provided, not me. I admit that was a bad choice on there part, nonetheless, the definition does say "to occupy to capacity."