The Vong worldship discussion, version 2.0

But the first book is very vague - saying things like "probably" - the summary isn't like that

 

All of this misses the point that until the Vong are outside the galaxy, they are inherently attackers. Regardless of whether they are civillian attackers, child attackers or adult military attackers, they are on the attack while even a single one of them remains inside the galaxy.

And each and every one is one which needs to be defended against. They must be defended against until all Vong are pushed back outside the galaxy. Anything up until that time is a complete and total defense of the galaxy.

The only time anyone within the GFFA can be an attacker is if they go beyond the boundaries of the GFFA to assult the Vong.

So, it doesn't matter who was on the worldship, if anyone at all, because those people still needed defending against.

 

But, as I pointes out in another thread, was not (nor has he ever been) a part of the NR military. As a civilian, he has no authority to attack Vong targets like that.

To me, this sounds like a large load of trying to justify how something that was wrong really wasn't wrong. What I took exception to, more than anything, is the claim that Kyp attacked an EMPTY worldship. That is blatently NOT TRUE. We have no knowledgable sources that state that it was empty, and one source that states that it was filled. Claiming that it was empty is revisionism.

I will not insist that Kyp was right or wrong to attack the worldship (though I belive he was wrong), but I refuse to accept the revisionist attepts to change the effects of his actions.

That said, I have already agreed to disagree on the topic of his actions. I've pretty much given all my evidence, its up to you to decide to accept or reject it.

Kimball Kinnison

 

Here, here, Genghis! Well said as usual. Our previous debate about what consitutes self defense was along those lines. You are completely right.

 

Gen - so Vong children are "fair game" in the war because they will grow up to be Warroirs, so does that mean Jedi children and all children within the NR are "fair game" because they will grow up to be warriors?

 

Kimball, incorrect. Kyp's Dozen are NR, as is said in Jedi Eclipse.



And Jaeger, they ARE going for the kids. Yavin?

 

When you looked at a lot of the bombing raids in World War II, there was collateral damage.

As far as I know, the worldship was still under construction. The losses were mostly whatever construction crew the Vong had.

Now, the new worldship is gone, and with it, a fair portion of the Vong's shipbuilders. might some civilians have been caught in the crossfire? Perhaps, but if the Vong decide to trade civilians to maintain their military force, it is not Kyp's fault.

 

I concur, Genghis. The Vong came to GFFA to conquer and kill as many people as possible, a premeditated war in which they know the consequences all too well. Hell, they embrace the possibility of death, its what their culture literally lives for. I have no sympathy for any Vong children or "innocents" who may have been killed when the worldship was destroyed. Regardless of the fact that is was probably only filled with workers and other personnel, it is a time of war, one on which they initiated. They deserve no better than death for what they have reaped in the GFFA.

 

I agree with Genghis. If you have an invader in your space then it's kind of hard to say an attack is unprovoked, or you might not even call it an attack because they're the ones in your space and they don't belong there. You're just defending your space. At a military scale this makes perfect sense. Maybe not down at the civilian level, like if some guy came into your house, because civilians are bounded by laws of the state, such as those self defense laws we were discussing earlier. During war it's different. If someone comes into your territory and attacks you then you have full right to drive them out. If you try and take some of their land after you drive them out, then you're the attacker.

Jae Angel

 

"Regardless of the fact that is was probably only filled with workers and other personnel, it is a time of war, one on which they initiated" - as I said, the Vong should then not be held accountable for any of hte civillians, children or anyone else they have murdered or killed? Its a time of war.

 

Wait. Are worldships grown with caverns and holes and such inside of them already? Or do the Vong have to carve into them.

 

Jedi Eclipse? Where does it state that? They may be citizens of the NR, but are they part of the military? No.

Throughout the NJO, officials in the military have described Kyp's actions as "rogue" actions (not as in the squadron). That implies acting without authority. As a bit of proof, Wdge's conversation with Kyp and Jaina in Rebirth (Chapter 26, page 395, SFBC edition) has Wedge saying "But for the duration of this mission, you will submit to authority." That implies that he has been acting without authority.

If you would, pleas refer me to the chapter of Jedi Eclipse that shows that they are in the NR military. (I have the SFBC 2-in-1 editions of the duologies.)

Kimball Kinnison

 

the Dozen and Two werent. The Dozen are. Ill find the part, but for now, from the unnoficial encyc:


formed after the destruction of the Dozen-and-Two Avengers at Helska, this band of vigilantes was led by Kyp Durron. They were classified by the New Republic military as a support unit, provided that drop the "Avengers" from their name


They are a NR unit, hence in the NR.

 

I don't want to read all this crap for the second time in two days, so I'll make it easy on myself: I second what ReaperFett says when it comes to the Kypster.

 

Of course I think the Vong should be held accountable, jaeger. They provoked this war, and they are quite purposely hunting down and killing young Jedi students. That is their mission, whereas the NR is only trying to defend itself and mount some kind of offense.

 

The Dozen weren't a NR squardon, they were 12 pilots who agreed with Kyp.

Also the NR sees Kyp as friendly, fighting the same war, not as part of them. Thats why they are a support unit, not a regular unit.

 

There are two differences:

1. The workers are aiding in constructing weapons of war. Not much difference in the skills needed to make military ships and civilian ships. Heck, prior to World War II, Japan was able to convert a pair of civilian cruise ships into the carriers Junyo and Hiyo.

Shipbuilding capability is a legitimate target.

2. The New Republic did not start this war. The Vong did. Furthermore, the Vong have been indiscriminate in their attacks. The NR has been much more cautious in their targeting.

The incomplete worldship, with the large shipbuilding contignent on board, was a legitimate target.

Had Kyp been honest with Wedge and the others ("Look, I had an idea - why not take out this incomplete worldship they are building? We'll kill or injure a lot of their shipbuilding capacity, and make it harder for them to replace combat losses."), he'd not be in that much hot water. Heck, even Corran Horn would have to admit it was a brilliant plan, and would hurt the Vong. Kyp simply blew it by lying about the target.

Kyp's the GFFA's Inspector Harry Callahan. He's got a good sense of who the good guys and the bad guys are, and he'll stop the bad guys.

The bad guys might complain about excessive force, but Kyp only finished the fight the bad guys started.

 

Chapter 21. First point, Karrde says Kyp DETAINED pirates and smugglers, proving he didnt go to kill(remember, Karrde would be biased as well).


Now, the point in case. Page 235, lines 29-35(ish). Shada says they're not sanctioned by the military, Karrde shakes his head and corrects her.

To me, this says that they are NR, but not ordered. Support to me means sanctioned, but not fully under rule

 

I seem to be catching a lot of flak for what I've said. Let me clarify my position a little.

I never said that the worldship was not a valid military target. I have no problem with it having been attacked.

My problem is twofold:

1) Trying to characterize it as having been EMPTY. It was not and, as I said, there are no knowledgable sources that have stated that it was. It did contain civilian workers. That does not change its status as a military target, but it WAS NOT EMPTY.

2) Kyp had no authority to launch the attack. To compound this, in order to coerce those with the authority to attack this target, he deceived them and then tried to rationalize his actions. That is wrong. However, that is my opinion and I have already agreed to disagree on that. (Note: I have not been arguing on that point.)

I have to get going, so I'd love to continue this discussion much later.

Kimball Kinnison

P.S. Just for purposes of full disclosure, JediSmuggler is my older brother. Isn't it lovely to see some good old brotherly love around here?

 

I could very well be wrong, but isnt it mentioned somewhere in SbS that Kyp was " arresting " these smuuglers ? If that is indeed true it would seem that Kyp's actions are sanctioned by the NR.

 

So by your logic the Vong are justified in destorying whole worlds and their populations that have shipyards?

back onto kyp - Kyp is acting as a Rogue, in an aggressive way. For a Jedi how can this be right or good?

 

jaeger...
"the Vong should then not be held accountable for any of hte civillians, children or anyone else they have murdered or killed?"

Until they are out of the galaxy, the Vong are held accountable for all of the civillians, children and everyone else that have murdered or killed - including their own.

You cannot hide behind the defense that their kids who they brought with on their attack are off-limits. It is the Vong who have placed their children in direct harms way by bringing them on the invasion. The Vong (collectively as a whole) need to be defended against. That includes all of them inside the galaxy, including the kids they brought.

The issue of "level of force" is an entirely different debate than whether the defense should even be undertaken. Yes, even the Vong children must be defended against. I won't address what that defense should entail, as it's irrelevent (i.e. beheading every Vong toddler you see with a lightsaber or merely shipping them off to loving families in the GFFA to raise as their own, etc).

If a sadomasochist slaving rapist breaks into my house with his three-year-old daughter carried in a baby carrier on his chest, proceeds to poison my wife, murders my friend, mortally wounds another friend's kid and nearly hacks off the legs of my sister, then I really have to say the life of this maniac's daughter is secondary to the lives of my own loved ones. If all I have is a shotgun, and he's got a gun, then I'm afraid his daughter may pay for his actions. Sucks to be her, I'm afraid.

The thing I'm not going to do is tell him, "Hey, now that you're here, you can take the dining room. Go raise your daughter there. Have a nice day."

I think that's a bit ridiculous to ask anyone to accept.

 

By destroying the worldship, Kyp has kept the vong from being able to fight a full war. What I mean by this is that eventually they will either run out of troops or have to divert military ships to go and get new recruits. I don't believe that they are willing to do this and will lose the war because of their stubborness.

Also, the worldship was most likely not filled to capacity. It probably had several people on it but, as has been already said by many, no vong in the GFFA are innocent and all deserve to be destroyed for what they have done. In less than 5 years, they have done more damage to the galaxy than the Empire did in the whole of it's existance as the main government.

 

Dont worry Kimball, I gotcha

 

OK, Reaper, I was wrong in saying that they are not NR military. However, that further compunds Kyps wrongdoing. ANY military needs to have a definite chain of command in order to function. If Kyp's unit was a fully authorized part of the military, he should have taken the plan for the raid to his superiors. It does state that they are a support unit. I do, however, stand by the rest of my comments.

Instead of acting without authority, he exceeded the authority that he had.

Kimball Kinnison