The Vong worldship discussion, version 2.0

"So by your logic the Vong are justified in destorying whole worlds and their populations that have shipyards?

Sigh....Where do you get that from? Kyp and the NR Military did not destroy Sernpidal or its population (which is very small, obviously). They destroyed a ship, along with its accompanying building apparatus (the ship womb, etc.). If the Vong attacked Kuat, for example, and attacked New Republic ships still in dry dock, and destroyed the construction apparatus along with it, but left the planet and its citizens intact, it would be a perfectly ethical military action.

 

"Instead of acting without authority, he exceeded the authority that he had.

Ok, that is a perfectly legitimate complaint. In fact, in some respects, I agree with you. I regret the damage Kyp did to his reputation by exceeding his authority, and I regret that some of the volunteers died on a mission they may not have deemed worthy of their life. But that is the life of a soldier. Many, many warriors have died for a cause they didn't believe in or didn't understand. Regretable? Yes. Necessary? Absolutely. I believe Kyp's actions were the right thing to do, Kyp's reputation and Jaina's feelings be damned.

Furthermore, I object to your feelings towards Kyp's statement. Kyp says the Worldship was "probably" nearly empty, and you ignore it. You say he is either lying or wrong. Yet, the only reason we know the thing was a Worldship at all, and that it was meant for civilians, was because Kyp tells us it is. If Kyp was trying to protect his reputation, why would he tell Jaina anything about its real purpose? Wouldn't he conceal everything he knew about its true nature? More over, how can you take those two bits of information (that its a worldship, and its meant for civilians) as a fact, yet totally disregard the third piece of information (that it was empty)? None of what Kyp said can be verified, yet you accept completely some of what he said because it backs up your arguments, and ignore the parts that do not.

 

You might want to balance (i.e., compare/contrast) Kyp's and Jaina's perspectives WITH Quarang (sp?) Lah's perspectives about the shipwomb at Sernpidal.

Consult EV:R in the very first chapter dealing with a conversation between Warmaster Tsavong Lah, Executor Nom Anor and Commander (rank?) Quarang Lah.

"If" Quarang Lah is NOT addressing the WORLDSHIP at the Sernpidal shipwomb directly, then Quarang Lah "IS" addressing the SHIPWOMB in it's entirety specifically. (I'd have to refresh my memory here too).

From the YV POV represented through Quarang Lah's dialogue, I don't get the impression that the shipwomb and/or the worldship at Sernpidal are "civilian" in nature. Rather, I'm more inclined to believe that they are "military" in nature, and thus, "military" targets.

It doesn't matter to me "what Jaina Solo's perspective on the whole worldship issue" is, especially when the YV, themselves, "appear" to have an opposite take on this issue. I think the YV's intentions with that shipwomb and/or that worldship are a better indicator of its "true use" than is Jaina.

How is Jaina going to know the true intent of the Sernpidal worldship anyway? Isn't this entire "destruction of the Sernpidal worldship" more an issue of "deceit" and "trust" BETWEEN Jaina and Kyp - and "the rest of that argument" is just disguised, misleading, collateral semantics given voice through emotional arguments?

Perhaps there's reason why Kyp let Jaina "unload" her emotions without much retort - whatever that means?

Perhaps "the difference" between the three Praetorite Vong expeditionary worldships at Helska 4 and the worldship under construction at Sernpidal is "slight," if any difference at all? Who's to say without more specificity from the SW literature?

 

When the YV came uninvited, unheralded and voilent into the GFFA, they brought unarmed civilians with them.

The civilians are, however, a part of the invasion. Thus, they are military targets. In Vietnam, many kids were recruited by VC and NVA to fight against the Americans. They were a part of the NV war effort, and viable targets.

It was not Kyp Durron or the NR that made the children of the Vong targets. It was the Vong themselves, who did not care enough for their children to keep them away from their war.

This war is not one that has been seen in the GFFA before, it is not like the war against the empire-one for CONTROL. It is a war for the right to exist.

It is not as though there is any possibility of a peaceful conclusion to the war. There is only one clear objective to the Vong: the utter destruction of all other races. The Vong remind me of the short discussion between the president (Bill Pullman) and the lab-imprisoned alien in the movie "Independenc Day".

Prez: What do you want us to do?

Alien: Die. Die!


To say that any part of the invasion brought by the YV is above classification as a viable target is lunacy. Just because they are not yet an active weapon of the Vong does not make Vong children "innocent". They are the intended occupants of an already occupied galaxy.

Killing innocents is never the most moral solution to war; it is sometimes, however, the most bloodless and convenient. In the case of the GFFA, it may just be the ONLY solution. Once the Vong have nothing to occupy the worlds they take, then maybe they will settle down and consider their actions.

Just some opinions...

 

Face, all I was trying to point out is that Kyp did not know that it was empty. It is my belief that he chose to believe that for several reasons, among them some of the ones that we have discussed (i.e. it was still under construction) as well as it would make it psychologically easier to deal with. There is no way to know if it DID have a lot of people on it or not.

My objection came from people basing their claims for it being empty on Kyps LACK of knowledge. It may have been empty (although I doubt it, for reasons I've already cited), but we have no proof of that, only guesses.

If you will note, I did not accuse him of murdering innocent civilians at all. I have simply focused on the question of whether there were people on board the worldship or not.

Kimball Kinnison

 

But you could say that Kyp was more or less at the site, so would know they were still building, so wouldnt let people in, yeah?

 

Well I think that Kyp needs stop acting like he is some kind of great savior of the galaxy and start acting like an adult and actually have the guts to say he was wrong about lying, instead he trys to justify all his lying by saying things like it's for the good of the galaxy. He just went off and took away everyones freedom of choice, I thought he was suppose to be fighting for the rights of all those in the GFFA, but as far as he is concerned sacrificing everyones rights doesn't matter as long as it turns out all right. But guess what Coruscant has fallen and his putting small little dings in the Yuzzahn Vong force didn't turn out to be as effective as he had hoped. Just because he is a Jedi doesn't mean he can go off and do whatever he wants to. He just simply breaks away from the order and becomes a Rouge jedi and a lot of Rouge jedi who say they are doing the right thing ususally end up on the Darkside of the force. The only reason he joined back up is that Skywalker was done with all his preparation and was ready to fight, I think we can all agree that he will just leave again if things aren't done his way, supposedly the right way.

 

Of course Kyp doesnt care about the 'rights' of the Vong. They're not even in their own galaxy, and since they are trespassing they should NOT be accorded the same rights as the citizens of the GFFA. I dont think that Kyp is wrong in what he is doing, and obviously he is taking on the Vong with extreme prejudice. I also think the same argument can be used with some basis in our reality. For the sake of argument, let us say that Bin Laden is captured by the U.S. Why should he be granted the right to a fair trial, the very same freedoms that all U.S. citizens share ? He is a an animal beside the fact that he is not a U.S. citizen and never was, and obviously we all know the extent of his hatred and anger. I think the same argument can be made against the Vong. They simply do not deserve the rights and priviledges that the citizens of the GFFA share. They, like Bin Laden, are filthy animals and deserve no better than to be treated as such.

 

Reaper,

Go back and look at his comments in Rebirth. He had done occasional jumps into the system. They were very dangerous and difficult to do and he could not stay there for very long. I doubt he was able to get too much more info than that they were building something and what they were building.

Considering the problems that the assault force had, I doubt that Kyp got very close to the worldship or got any high-quality scans that would tell him if there were people aboard. It would all be a guess based on his own logic (probably following the same logic that we've seen in this thread).

It was stated as an opinion, not a fact. There is no basis for treating it as a fact.

Kimball Kinnison

 

A few points.

1) Kyp had no right to lie. If he was a member of an NR support unit, he sure didn't have the right to lie his way all the way up to the top. He exceeded his authority.

2) He lied to another Jedi. I'm not bothered which Jedi it was he lied to (in this case Jaina), nor am I too concerned about her POV. What I am concerned about is that the entire Jedi Code revolves around trust - trust of the Force, and of other Jedi. When a Jedi has lied before - and to other Jedi - then the others don't know when they can trust him. If ever Kyp gets to a position of any authority in the NJO (PLEASE NO!!!), nobody will know when he's telling them the truth.

3) He upgraded the war-effort. Borsky was using the time to get his military units prepped, as was Lah. The NR troops wouldn't have gone after the ship without the lie - at the least, we know Kyp felt that, or he wouldn't have bothered to lie in the 1st place. This implies that blowing a Worldship wasn't exactly a priority action for the NR military, and Kyp forced it upon them.

4) I apologize profusely, but I find it very hard to believe the NR will be justified in genocide - the wiping out of every Yuuzhan Vong in their Galaxy. Yet Kyp's action - and the debate in this forum - seems to be a precursor of just such an attitude. I know the YV are the aggressors, but does that justify genocide?

 

When you have a homcidal maniac that breaks into your home, and he isn't going to listen to reason, what other option is there?

The fact is, this war might come down to a kill-or-be-killed situation.

At this point, with the exception of the outcast Vong (as described in Conquest), there may be no choice but to take them all out.

It comes down to an old question: Which would you rather be, dead and innocent, or alive and dealing with having to take out the guy who tried to kill you?

Kyp's made his call. He wants the New Republic to stay alive, and if it means he gives up his reputation or his life, so be it. He is 100% committed, and he will make any sacrifice he has to in order to accomplish the goal.

Kyp may need to be reined in some, but he only needs a minor course correction.

 

This whole converstation reminds me of the nuking of hiroshima and Nagasaki in WW2. Was Truman right in nuking Japan to make them surrender, or would have it been better for the Allies to fight a conventional occupation of Japan and neutralize them that way instead via the nuke?

The worldship attack was a strategic attack. When fighting for your life, a low blow is completely acceptable like sacking someone, but it's not acceptable in a sanctioned sport like Boxing.

 

This isn't a sport. If I were fighting for my life, I wouldn't hesitate to kick a guy in the balls (and I'm male, so this isn't a standard defense). I think the NR would be perfectly in their rights using the Sun Crusher on Sernpidal. I mean, it's a shipyard. A conventional assault would cost thousands of NR lives and still wreck the whole place with massive enemy casualties