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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

The Vong's liking for pain...

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Feb 1, 2002.

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  1. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    It is entirely possible that we could see other sadomasochistic species in the SW galaxy, other than the Vong.

    How? Let us have a planet with a highly hostile environment, where breathing is painful for the inhabitants, who have to endure it. They lack the power to change it and by the time their civilization has evolved to the point of removing the pain, acceptance has become a cultural keystone in the species' society.

    This possibility leads to the conclusion that it is not the Vong's sadomasochism that makes them evil. Indeed not. Two beings may engage in sadomasochistic acts but, if they do so with full consent, is that truly wrong? It would be difficult to say yes, unless the pair were inflicting pain upon another to force acceptance of sadomasochism. This the Vong do and are on a crusade to do to all, whatever they may believe.

    Even if there are no such species in the SW galaxy, that does not make sadomasochism in and of itself wrong. S&M is weird, odd and strange but if consent is involved, can it be deemed objectionable in the way that the Vong's coercion clearly is?

    The Empire imposed its beliefs via politics, the Vong do so via religion. Both are wrong, yet a sadomasochist is not evil, nor is a belief in order, both beliefs could be said to be one of the defining aspects of each totalitarian regime.

    It is in the degree to which the beliefs are taken, to the point of imposing them upon others. The Vong's beliefs are strange, their acts abhorrent, but the actual S&M is not actually evil.

    So...In all likelihood Prince Xizor will drop by to proclaim that my Balrog status has just been renewed!

    Jedi Ben
     
  2. chissdude10

    chissdude10 Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Hmmm...I think you could look as far as Earth and see Empires who did not totally disregard death and pain.

    Ecpecially the Maya or Aztec, they often had huge sacrifices for the Gods.
     
  3. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Yes there are the Aztec and Maya empires, but did the human sacrifices actually volunteer for sacrifice? Or were they prisoners executed in a gruesome fashion?

    Besides a sadomasochist does not wish to die, s/he wishes to experience pain, survive and then experience pain again.

    A real strange belief must lie behind such actions but, if it is what someone or thing wants and consents to, can it be termed evil?

    Ah, mail: yep, confirmation of Balrog at large!

    Jedi Ben
     
  4. chissdude10

    chissdude10 Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Although Philosophy is an interest of mine, must you use such complex wording in your sentences?
     
  5. Darth Ludicrous

    Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2000
    what about the Mayan tradition of stretching their heads? I bet the Vong bdy thing was partly based on that.
     
  6. Sinje_Gawa

    Sinje_Gawa Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2001
    The ancient cultures of Central America also used disfigurement and pain, not just sacrifice. Putting spikes through the skin of certain... delicate parts springs to mind.

    I'm sure there are plenty of cultures in the GFFA that use pain in ritual and beliefs. The question becomes "To what extent?" The Vong seem to have made it a central tenet of their mores or system of values.
     
  7. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Here's an idea 'dude: Go and read some Hegel, then come back and read my posts. You will find the lingo as easy as anything unless your brain gets turned to jelly by Hegel's horror prose. (It could happen!) I tell you true: I am nowhere near as bad as some of the professionals! :)

    Jedi Ben
     
  8. chissdude10

    chissdude10 Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 2001
    One problem Jedi Ben, I have no idea what your talking about!

    Up to my knowledge(which may I say is advanced for someone of my age), all I can compare the vong is to the Mayan. I mean these people were totally sacrificial!
     
  9. Sinje_Gawa

    Sinje_Gawa Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Dec 17, 2001
    Perhaps if you would explain precisely what you find challenging, we could find our way towards describing it better?
     
  10. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Say DL, feel like saying a bit more about that? This Mayan tradition you mention, was it fatal or did it just inflict a load of pain on whoever had 'the treatment'?

    You're right to say it's a tenet of Vong belief, or it's become so.

    The reflecting of the Aztecs by the Vong is uncannily accurate. There does seem a contradiction with our Vong S&M fans, in that, how does a S&M fan decide to die, if they like experiencing pain? If they die, the cannot experience pain? Unless like an addict, they keep hitting themselves with bigger and bigger shots and then go for the big, final and ultimate high.

    Talking of pain inflicted: Don't seriously consider acting on my earlier suggestion Chissdude, you're way too young to have your mind wrecked by Hegel!

    Jedi Ben
     
  11. Darth Ludicrous

    Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2000
    I don't recall it being painful, only permanent. It was something only the upper class did, I suppose akin to Chinese foot binding at its start (which was both painful and permanent). Anyway, my source is simply a remembrance of an interesting sidebar in a gradeschool social studies textbook.
     
  12. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    OK: For the Chissdude:

    Hegel was a German philosopher, writing in the late 1800s. He wrote, in my view, the most difficult, tricky and mind numbing philosophy ever. Even Hegel's heirs such as Kant and later Nietzsche could not touch him for horrific language. Kant was more boring but he was understandable, Nietzsche was crazy but interesting. Hegel was a horror without peer.

    A general Q: What kind of philosophy are you interested in though?

    There is:

    Aesthetics: Philosophy of art.
    Ethics: Morality, free will, responsibility and so forth.
    Epistemology: Theory of knowledge, how do we know what we know?
    Metaphysics: Also sometimes caled Ontology, refers to questions that go beyond reality, thus the question "does God exist?" for example.
    Phenomenology: The study of appearance
    Theology: Theory of religion

    You can throw into the mix: Political and social philosophy, philosophy of education, law and history even.

    Jedi Ben
     
  13. Sinje_Gawa

    Sinje_Gawa Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2001
    The Yuuzhan Vong use pain as a device to cleanse themselves after exposure to what they consider blasphemy. Since they use pain regularly in their culture, even in the absense of things they consider unholy such as machines, the conclusion can be drawn that they believe their very existence is flawed. This concept of man being imperfect and wanting in the eyes of a god can be found in many religious dogmas.

    To some extent, you could say that the Sith use a form of pain in their 'culture' or subculture. The decay caused by prolonged use of the dark side of the Force is well-known. Yet they continually use the dark side. In fact, they draw on the pain for power. Pain is simply part of the nature of the dark side - the object of their devotion.

    A lot of religious thought and debate originates from considerations of pain. Various questions such as: "If ours is a benevolent god, why do we experience pain/does evil exist?" work to formulate belief systems. In our own cultures, however, we invariably have a redeemer, an afterlife or some concept of something that provides succor.

    Perhaps the lack of diversity in Vong culture, and a strictly controlled society where only the priesthood can question society's values - anything else is blasphemy - has lead to the belief that if there is pain, it must be the will of the gods. Without any other outlet for spiritual inquiry and fulfillment (because such questioning is only allowed by the clergy), the Vong may see pain as the only way to communicate with their gods, the only way to redeem themselves for perceived sins and transgressions. The priests would hardly discourage this, because it allows them to maintain some level of social control.

     
  14. Gr-Adm-Thrawn

    Gr-Adm-Thrawn Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2002
    their is this Japanese saying you all have most probably all heard of :

    You only live twice. Once when you are born, and once when you die.

    --------------

    Our society is based on the rejection of pain in most of it's forms of manifestation.

    So let's work in analogy to try and get the idea through...

    The french word for work is "Travail" which comes from the latin word "Tripalium" that means torture.
    Ever wonder why French people forced the government to work only 35hours A WEEK ! They don't want to be "working" or want to do it as little as possible. Fleeing the work as you flee "torture" and pain.

    However in the Thai language, work is called "Tham Ngaan" is shares it's root with the thai word for "party" Ngaan. Work is associated with fun and games. No conception of torture or pain here .. and everybody is eager to come to the office to work with their "friends of work" (as unbelievable as it seems)

    The reason why i am speaking of this is to imagine the bigger picture between the GFFA and the YV and the conception of Pain or other values.

    We reject pain as the french would reject Work (I'm not dissing them .. i'm French .. studied Philosophy in University and one of my favorite subject was the conception and use of Words by philosophers ! had to find work after that though ;))
    And the vong "accept" pain as the thais do Work. it's just a question of conceptualisation.

    Doesn't make them evil, just different.
     
  15. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Thanks for that GAT, the central proposition of this thread is it's the Vong's inflicting and demanding that others follow their beliefs, with all that entails, that is evil.

    One curiosity that I had in creating this thread was to see if anyone might try and argue the opposite. That the liking for pain is evil in and of itself, no one seems to have tried that but it might be attempted.

    Intriging post Sinje, I like the bringing in of the Sith.

    By the by, I'm quite aware threads can evolve beyond their initial genesis, don't think I mind about the drift to the wider questions.

    Jedi Ben
     
  16. chissdude10

    chissdude10 Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Thank you for the explanation, Jedi Ben.
     
  17. killfire

    killfire Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2001
    When a sadomasochist dies he/she will be sent to heaven for punishment ...
     
  18. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Jedi Ben...
    I don't necessarily know if the Vong have a "liking for pain." They may not like it at all (not all are into the S&M thing and those that are do so in varying levels). IMO, I think it is more of a cultural duty. Those who do it, don't seem to be doing it because "hey, gouging my eye out with a spork is fun" or "I didn't have anything better to do, so I had my hand chewed off by penguins, what fun." They do it, because it brings them something. So, because the S&M is a status symbol, Vong who like the benefits may do it, but don't do it necessarily for the sake of the pain.

    It seems that only the true-believing fanatical die-hards are the only ones who may find pleasure from it - and those are actually few and far between it seems.

    As for the other point...
    "That the liking for pain is evil in and of itself, no one seems to have tried that but it might be attempted."

    It would be an interesting stance. It seems to me that the subjective nature of the subject matter would make it all but impossible. An artistic free-spirit may see having to wear a white shirt, tie and slacks to work every day while working in a cubicle to be the worst pain imaginable, even to the point where it will eat away at the person. Whereas someone else may derive pleasure from the same thing. And to touch on probably a touchy subject, take as an example a case where a female (or I suppose a guy, I don't want to be sexist) may find one of the most pleasurable experiences we have available to us to be rather painful.

    Convince me that there is a clear absolute objective standard of pain that fits everyone and perhaps that route that "pain=evil" may perhaps be defendable IMO.

    EDIT: Btw, I meant eating ice-cream. You know, sometimes the ice cream is waay to cold and some females may find it painful to eat. :)
     
  19. Gr-Adm-Thrawn

    Gr-Adm-Thrawn Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2002
    Jedi ben - Thanks for that GAT, the central proposition of this thread is it's the Vong's inflicting and demanding that others follow their beliefs, with all that entails, that is evil.

    I have a serious moral problem here. If I agree that the Yuuzhaan Vong are evil because the "inflict and demand others to follow their beliefs with all that entails" - then i'm stuck with the fact that by using the same process of judgement => I'm also accusing the Holy church of being evil for the massacres in South and latin america during the colonisation, the massacres of the "St- Bathelemy" in France, and most of the religious wars that have occured back to the Holy Crusades.

    You are defining evil as a sort of "Do or die" ... History proves did the same thing, you know, wiping out entire cultures because they didn't share our religious point of view on things but we never claimed we were evil nor will we any time soon.

    Hummm .. I feel I've come to a great divide of some sorts, either left or right .. for now I think I will stand on the cross roads and ponder a little more.



    Oh .. Also : regarding the gentle evolution of a thread from it's genesis .. .
    It doesn't hurt to see a bigger picture, does it ? :)
     
  20. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Non-recognition of an evil act does not make the act any less evil, it just denies the act's true nature.

    As for the inflicting of beliefs, it is inflicting without option to refuse, it is in effect: Believe or die!

    Frankly that is evil. The destruction of the Aztecs by the Conquistadors may qualify as a right act for the wrong erasons, a supposed Christian duty but the Aztecs were not exactly innocent.

    The religious wars, with Catholics and Protestants burning each other at the stake was evil.

    We can deny it for eternity but it will not change the fact that the acts were evil.

    It is not all one sided: Humanity has done much that is good, but we've also mch that was evil while claiming to do good.

    Genghis,

    My wondering as to whether someone may argue liking pain is evil was purely that, a wondering. I can't work out how to do it but thought I'd throw it in to see if anyone tried to do it.

    Jedi Ben
     
  21. chissdude10

    chissdude10 Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Jedi Ben, your right the Aztecs where not totally inocent, and in all means they actually struck first, with their scouting parties.

    Remember to it was the year 1 reed, so the Aztechs also where demanding great sacrifices because of the belife that their gods would come and destroy them(or something like that).

    However my point is...Cortez, before entering Tenotechitalan,masacured over 6000 aztechs along with his native allies.

    I dont want to sound like Im defending Montezuma, yet they both held a pritty fundemental nature and where willing to kill for their belifs.

    Now what did this have to do about the Vong?....
     
  22. Gr-Adm-Thrawn

    Gr-Adm-Thrawn Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2002
    Jedi Ben - My wondering as to whether someone may argue liking pain is evil was purely that, a wondering. I can't work out how to do it but thought I'd throw it in to see if anyone tried to do it.

    Liking pain is evil ... No!
    Running a Marathon is Pain. Pain beyond anything you will ever experience - running at pace speed for more than 39Kms - Pain of exhaution screaming in all your limbs begging you to stop. But the senstion of accomplishment when your run down the finish line is beyond anything you may know. (PS : anybody who claims otherwise either hasn't run a marathon or is an outright liar : shame on you [face_devil])

    Liking pain isn't evil, most people will accept pain if they can get something for the trouble they just endured!

    Like a mother giving birth the "natural" way (no drugs, no surgery)isn't Evil, in fact it's one of the most beautiful things that person would reminisence ! I'm not saying she'd do it again a zillion times .. just that she has an ackward liking to the intense pain of child labor and later holding the child in her arms.

    For some people the worst kind of Pain would be to listen to a Boys' band or an album of Mariah carey ;).. for others it's just something they do everyday.
    OK OK OK not at all on line with the thread but I just had to put this down ! :)

    NO but liking Pain isn't evil .. if it's on oneself ! Coz, if it is then the whole concept of the Olympics is the work of the Devil !

    the vong accept pain on themselves in the light of a greater good for them .. see any difference with sportsmen ?

    As for inflicting pain to others .. well "that's another story altogether" ;)
     
  23. Gr-Adm-Thrawn

    Gr-Adm-Thrawn Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2002
    what's this .. no new post :(

    oh well, maybe next time.

    there's a little black spot on the sun today
    it's the same old thing as yesterday
    There's a black hat caught in a high tree top
    There's a flag pole rag and the wind won't stop

    I have stood here before inside the pouring rain.
    With the world turning circles runnin 'round my brain
    I guess I'm always hoping that you'll end this reign
    But it's my destiny to be the king of pain.

    :)
     
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