Phx The War Room: Open Forum

Discussion in 'SouthWest Region Discussion' started by wardenx, Jul 9, 2003.

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  1. Master_Ronin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 2
    The education system is so backwards that I'm suprised 90% of our nation doesn't work in factories. That is what they teach us to do. Homework is a system setup to teach us how to do the same menial tasks day after day and less complaining as we get more used to doing it. YAY, ROBOT CHILDREN.

    When I was in grade school, all homework was was work that I didn't get done at school, and it was due the next day, so I did it at home.

    When I got to high school, it was more of that. Sure, there were assignments that were made to be homework, but sometimes that was because they couldn't be completed in class, and almost always because there's never enough time with 45 minute periods.

    Not everyone can absorb information and knowledge straight from the teacher's mouth. In fact, most can't. I sure couldn't. But I got straight As through most of school because I did ALL the work.



    Now the kid is treated like ass all year because of some comment.. Or worse still if the teacher thinks you are going to be a dumb student.... it's easily shown that you become one.

    Now that truely is a sad situation.

    In addition, what do kids/teens learn about money? What do they learn about investing, or buying a house? What do they learn about mortgages, banks, how to do your taxes, interest rates? What do they learn about relationships, marriage, having children, rasing them properly? What do they learn about retirement and Estate Planning, Death Taxes, probate taxes? DO THEY EVEN LEARN HOW TO BALANCE THEIR CHECKBOOK!??

    Almost EVERYTHING you listed was taught in the last semester of my Senior year. You know (but not everyone else) that I went to a private Christian boarding academy. One class on the curriculum at my school which you won't find at a public school is Bible. Now, for 7 semesters, it's simply Bible history and lessons, and so forth. But the 8th semester should really be called Life, where we learned about stuff like marriage (filled out marriage questionaires), buying a house, buying a car, buying furniture, you name it.

    I know some won't agree with me, but I too am VERY oppinionated about this. NOTHING is better for a child than a private Christian school. Even if you're not part of the faith, or even if you have no faith at all, the grade of faculty and teaching CANNOT be beat. Everything for both sides of the political bird: Advanced classes abound, as well as artistic classes. The teachers are on par with college teachers.

    Obviously, not everyone can afford it, but those that can should highly consider it.

    If we want to make ourselves better, we have to look at what we consume. Not just food and beverages, but what we feed our minds as well. Kids no nothing of spirituality, because they're taught dogma. Yet, they can remain innocent for a while...

    I think we should reform the system is all.


    AMEN brotha! ;)


  2. Master_Ronin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 2
    Just as a distraction from the heaviness we've put it today, when I was in high school I was in some class where I had to "have a child" the child was an egg. It was not hard boiled. I had to keep it with me 24 hours a day, keep a journal of how I "fed" it, "bathed", etc. Well, on the third day i was in school, I left the egg on my desk IN ITS COMFY BOX with a scarf over it. Some MORON came over, yanked the scarf off knocking the box over and poof! the egg splatted on the floor. So I failed my assingment because I didn't keep my egg alive. I KILLED MY EGG!!!!

    LOL Jada, as part of my Senior year Bible class, we had a similar thing, but with bags of flour. First we had to pair up with a member of the opposite sex and be psuedo parents (minus the pre-game warm-up). The rules weren't too strict. We had to have it with us where ever we went, or in the hands of a "baby sitter." This was easy to keep track of, being a boarding academy campus.

    ah-HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, the memories. Some people would dress up their bags of flour, even adding appendages. My friend and I went a smarter route. We wrapped ours in duct tape! There was nothing in the rules against it, so we did. I was merely content for one layer of tape, but my friend Kevin wrapped his baby up so much, you could kick it down the hall and nothing would happen!!
  3. wardenx Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    star 3
    Lord Reaper, I think those wee very valid points. Most of the things that are wrong with our scholl system can be enumerated by most anyone. If you ask enough people you'll probably get all of the problems mentioned in one form or another. I, too, was given mandatory homework. This wasn't extra work that we couldn't finish in class but rather extra work designed to be done at home. For the record, I NEVER did homework. LMAO I found the information to simplistic so I just aced my tests and skiped the homework. :D That way i made it through the years with roughly C's and B's. Suited my purposes at the time. I agree with you that the system is aimed at fostering a mindless masses of future social producers, a.k.a. our children. They are the future. The way the system forces children into unthinking obedience and repetition makes me shudder at what that means for our future as a country. If you look at what Hitler did with the youth of Germany (and it's conquered principalities) and what Stalin did with the children of The burgeoning Soviet Union in the early part of the 20th century, you'll notice a stark similarity to what certain factions of our special interest parties in this country want for our own children. We call it by another name, certainly, but it's still cultural reprograming. It's the death of what you and I know of as the United States of America. "USA" is soon going to stand for the Union of Socialized Americas.

    ON A DIFFERENT NOTE... I'd like to posit a question and get some informed responses on it. I value all of your opinions as well as any facts that might be posted so, please, give me your opinion as well. It's a touchy subject, so be forewarned. I'm interested in probing the issue, not bad-mouthing anyone or their beliefs. So, here it goes...

    Should a religion be judged by the actions of its followers?

    For example, should the nation of Islam be judged because of terroists and their actions? If it says in the Koran (which it does, BTW) to, "Slay the pagans (infidels)wherever you find them," and condoned lying and cheating and murder of infidels because we, as infidels, are not "true believers" and thus foresworn to the pits of Hell. As another example, in the Bible (because we have Judeau/Christian militant extremists, too, who are just as willing to die for their cause) God instructs the Jews to kill whole tribes of people (especially the Philestines who are the pregenitors of Palestine) down to the last man, woman and child - even to irradicate their herds of sheep and cattle. These are examples that can be found in their respective Holy Books.
  4. Lord_Reaper Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2002
    star 3
    Good topic.. I'll post in depth later.
  5. wardenx Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    star 3
    Cool. Looking forward to it. Your responses are always poigniant and interesting. :D
  6. Master_Ronin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 2
    I'm not sure why you guys feel that homework is such an evil thing. Is it not what we would be doing in class if we had the time?

    I don't see how it "forces children into unthinking obedience." If anything, having a child perform schoolwork outside of the school is a perfect tool for creating an adult that can work by him/herself without an authority figure towering over them all the time. Not only that, but in my personal experience, homework taught me to balance my time, and developed my ability to find more efficient paths toward goals, ie, getting the work done so I can play. That has translated to my jobs, causing me to find faster, more efficient ways of doing things, much to the happiness of my supervisors. Ooooo, but I'm bending to their will, and benefiting them. So? I'm placing myself higher in their eyes. I'll be recognized more often as being a jumpstart, they'll see my ability, and when I ask for that promotion, they'll be a lot more likely to give it.

    I'm not saying I liked homework. But it most certainly did not turn me into an unthinking drone. I'm about the most openly oppinionated person out there. ;)
  7. wardenx Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    star 3
    I'm not saying that homework is bad. I think it's fine. Nothing wrong with it. It's the system itself that has flaws that need addressing.
  8. Master_Ronin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 2
    Now back/forward onto the subject of religous zealots...

    As I mentioned before, I'm currently reading through the Bible, and found it interesting that the Israelites were the most successful at genocide. Why did God command them to wipe out everyone in their path? He actually didn't at first. One of the first cities they came to, they asked kindly to be allowed to pass through, so they could continue onto the Promised Land. The people refused, so Israel tried to go around the city but were attacked. That's when God stepped in and took command of the most successful army in the history of the world. But they didn't strike down cities that were in their path. You think today's society is imorral? It was about 10 times worse in those times. God didn't want people of such low standards corrupting his people, so it was easier to simply destroy them. He tried diplomacy, but it didn't work. But they didn't kill everyone with an evil streak. The Egyptians were some of their worst enemies, but quite a few actually journeyed with them, taking part in their practices. Likewise, other foreigners were welcomed in.

    Is what they did right? I think as a society today, we would be very pro extinction of a people that would sacrifice their own children, among other tasteless rituals, many sexual.

    So why aren't there masses of Christian zealots slaying the immoral left and right today? I'm not saying that some wackos don't try, but you don't see the numbers that there used to be. That's chiefly because they don't have God's backing anymore. Several thousand years ago, He decided that it was spreading too quickly for his people to handle it, so He said "Forget it, I'll handle it when the time comes." Instead, He wants his people to work on helping the misguided.

    /me steps off my box before I start preaching. ;)

    Now onto Islams. I took History of World Religions, but don't remember a whole lot about it, specifically, why they must "slay the infidels." What did we do wrong? Have we denied them trade and passage without reason? Have we oppressed them or acted hostile without reason? I don't think so.

    So, back to the main question. Should people of a religion be held accountable for their actions. This may be too much of a simplistic way of looking at it, but it should be on a generational basis. Just like we don't judge today's generation of Germany and Japan based on actions of previous generations, we shouldn't judge religions based on previous generations. ****, if the next generation of Islamic leaders stop this sillyness, I'll respect them.

    And there you have my highly opinionated opinion. :D
  9. Master_Ronin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 2
    I'm not saying that homework is bad. I think it's fine. Nothing wrong with it. It's the system itself that has flaws that need addressing.

    I agree, the public school system needs attention. But more attention than this country can afford, financially. If you could spend extra money to insure your child could receive an excellent education, would you? Again I return to my high opinion of private schools. The public school system is in what I believe to be an unrecoverable downward spiral, which would take more money then politicians would dream of spending to fix. Those that truly have a problem with the system should seriously look into private schools.
  10. wardenx Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    star 3
    I agree with private schools being the way to go. I also advocate home schooling, if the parent is qualified or knows someone who is and is willing to teach that way.

    As for Islam and it's tenet of "slaying the infidels..." Mohammed was born in the 6th century. He wrote the Koran then, or was directed to write it by the angels who visited him, as the story goes. Many muslim scholars say that it was the Crusades that tainted the relations between them and Christendom. But The Crusades were almost 500 years after Mohammed wrote the Koran. In the Koran are the tenets that militant extremists of Islam use to justify their intolerance of and hated attacks on the West. Many Muslim leaders of both the peaceful Islamic followers and the fundamentalist exremists have used Saladin as the example of what a muslim should be. Even the Crusaders, high and low, admired and respected Saladin for his nobility and honor. He was a great man and a wise leader and strategist. He showed mercy and compassion to friends and enemies alike. Truly a great example. But then you have people like Saddam Hussein who likened himslef to Saladin and Nebekinezer (sp?). Now, we all know that Saddam was in no way noble or honorable and has no inkling of what the word "compassion" means. But, still Saladin is used as the example of what it means to be just and noble and honorable. Just goes to show that time can alter people's perceptions of history.

    The Jews commited some of the worst attrocities because they said God ordered it. Of course, so are the Islamic terrorists today claiming the same. If the religion itself demands violence against the innocent (I can understand anyone demanding violence in the name of protecting themselves against a combatant force, just not attacking innocents) then is not the religion itself to blame for the mental programing of its constituency and thus the violence perpetrated by its members?

    If America is a Christian country (and I am not saying it is and wish fervently that it is not) then can't Christianity be blamed for the attrocities we may commit IN THE NAME OF CHRISTIANITY? If we perform an act in the name of liberty and justice based on our laws and the wishes of another people whom we may aid, then the US would be held accountable for its actions. If an army of Christian or Muslims (or Jew, Buddhists or what-have-you) got together and invaded another group (be it a country or religious organization), would not that group, being representatives of that religion, be held responsible?
  11. Master_Ronin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 2
    I believe it's Nebuchadnezzar, I'll look it up later, as will I post later, after I get home....
  12. wardenx Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    star 3
  13. jada_marnew Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2003
    star 5
    Homework is a ridiculous waste of time.

    Once a child is finished with their school day, LET THEM BE FINISHED AND BE CHILDREN FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! I tutored some 3rd, 4th and 5th graders who were getting 2 hours of homework a night . . . and that was with help from me and their parents.

    Children need time to be just that, children. Let them play baseball or do ballet, karate, play the flute, etc.

    Don't overwhelmed with so much that they lose the innocence of childhood, they joy of laying out on the grass (or sand here in the desert) and picking out the shapes in the sky.

    Now, I've talked to some teachers cause I get a lot of them in my classes and they say the reason kids get so much homework is because the parents ask for it. WHY?

    If I could homeschool my child I would but she has very specific needs and I am not qualified to teach her. So I'm putting her in the best hands I can. But if I could, I'd homeschool her and then spend the money on all the other hobbies she'd like to pursue.

    TAKES FLY LEAP OFF SOAPBOX
  14. Master_Ronin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 2
    BTW, wow, I did spell it right. lol

    I see what you're saying about the religion. If the religion itself says to do something, and that something is not very good for other people, then I suppose the basis of the religion should be blamed a bit, but also the people for not thinking for themselves and using common sense.

    I don't know how it is for Islams, but obviously for us, there are uncountable different variations and takes on individual verses. So essentially, only those that take it to the extreme should be held accountable, but how do we know if someone is willing to do so, but doesn't show it? We don't. Should we go so far as to say "guilty until proven innocent?" It wouldn't hurt.

    Blah, I'm tired and am going to stop now.

    I love this thread. :D
  15. jada_marnew Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2003
    star 5
    OK, very brief response to tenets of respective religions:

    The Christian faith, according to Jesus in the gospels (I will look this up and give specific reference later) is:

    Love the Lord God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your soul and Love thy neighbor as thy self.

    On these two sayings rests the entire law and teaching of the prophets and the old testament.

    OK, slight paraphase but these are the main tenets of the Christian faith.
  16. wardenx Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    star 3
    Thanks for the input JADA and Master Ronin.

    Jada: The amount of information that a child must learn these days has grown exponentially since when we were kids (more for some than for others ;)LOL). If schools can't get all of the information to children that they are going to need to function in our technologically advanced society, then I think they should be given homework to compensate. If it can be taught in the class to a degree where the student is adept enough to not need homework, then I think there should not be a need for homework. But I agree that homework shouldn't be mandatory just because parents want it or the government say so. It should only be necessary if it satisfies the criteria of competency.

    Master Ronin You actually hit on a subject within this topic that is where I am split on my opinion. That's personal responsibility for one's own actions. Like you said, there are so many different varitations within any religion (and that applies to Islam as well - there are the Sunni and the Shi'ite and the Wahabis and the Kurds and others who all hate each other vehemently for one reason or another and their take on Islam is what sets them against each other). I know that many of these Muslim and Christian and Jewish extremists all have the same brainwashing, propagandized, limited exposure lives that give birth to their uninformed opinions about other peoples and religions. So I always wonder exactly where personal choice comes into play when your personal choice is tainted by a lifetime of other people's ideals and beliefs. Couldn't the same be said for us? Aren't we also tainted by the ideals and beliefs of our parents, priests, pedagogues and politicians? What makes what we believe better or worse than what the Muslims believe? The only thing I can say is the sanctity of life that is a basic human need, to know that you and your family are safe, well fed and happy. If the religion or social belief system fosters that basic human need then I'd say it's good. If not, then I'd say it needs to be reformed until it is. But I can't help but wonder, despite all the brainwashing that goes on, how much do we really have free choice in extreme circumstances, if at all? I like to believe that we all do. In fact, I'll fight tooth and nail for that belief. But I just wonder...
  17. Master_Ronin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 2
    Some people think that because of my parents' beliefs and their teachings, that I've been brainwashed towards my religion. I suppose that's possible for some people, but when I became of age to be able to look at it with mature understanding, I began to question: "Does this really make sense?" And no matter where I turned, I came back with the same answer, yes. I found out that a lot of what I believe, for instance about the second coming, is pretty much verbatim right out of Revelations. And on the subject of Evolution versus Creation, Creation just makes more sense.
  18. wardenx Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    star 3
    Right on, Master Ronin. I can respect anyone who believes anything as long as they do so because of honest introspection. That someone chooses to believe something born out of deep reflection on what they need for their spiritual, mental and emotional growth, that is a worthy belief. As long as that same openness to questioning their beliefs doesn't stop that moment they think that what they have is THE answer. It's just THEIR answer. Being as individual answer doesn't detract from its validity, it encourages it, in fact. But just for the individual.

    What I'm trying to say, I guess, is that I think one's beliefs should be maleable when reflection on those beliefs finds them wanting or when those beliefs cause more harm than good in one's life. Beliefs usually limit an individual, not because of the beliefs, but because of the mentality that is associated with them, that being the dogmatic view that there is no more to learn or understand. When that happens, true spirituality is lost and the rituals of traditionalism rule in its place. (NOTE: Not that I'm saying that is your situation, Master Ronin. Just carrying the thought through. ;))
  19. Master-Yulen-Ood Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    Should a religion be judged by the actions of its followers?

    I think what it all boils down to is to whom does God speak? If God no longer speaks to mankind as a whole (as 95% of all Christian religions believe) then no one is justified in doing anything in the name of religion that was not penned down in ancient writ as an everlasting commandment. However, if God DOES speak to mankind we need to figure out for ourselves who he speaks to. If someone just claims to be following God's command, and for one reason or another, misinterpreted their own ideas as God's then they are in error and any blame should be placed solely on them. If an individual actually did folow the precepts that God laid down for that person, then responsibility should be laid on BOTH God and the individual.

    I have found that most everyone in any religion claims to have received some form of communication from God in some way or another. What we need to do is figure out if that person is telling the truth or if they were mislead or just plain misinterpreted the circumstance. If you feel that Muhammed wrote exactly what God told him, and that those words are meant for today's use, not just during a certain time, then to you it is justified to blame the whole religion and God for the actions of the religion. If, however, you think that God did not inspire the Koran, then to you the actions of that group are purely their own and any blame be upon the individual.

    Personally, I believe that more often than not people have some dream and claim it to be of God because doing so gives them a skapegoat, someone else to blame. We've even had this situation in court here in the US. It's the old "the devil made me do it" plea. With that, it is the courts job to determine whether or not that claim is true and whether or not the person had a choice whether or not to accept the promtings the devil gave them. The fact is no one can make you do anything - even God (not that He couldn't, He just doesn't). Sure we are all subject to propaganda and outside influences in our decisions but really it comes down to us. And I think that anyone who claims to do anything in the name of God ought also be willing to suffer whatever fate come of it. Besides, if God really commanded you to blow up a building or whatever, you would think that he would would also either protect you from any negtive reprocussions or make a martyr out of you so that your death will do good for God's name. If neither really happen then you're probably full of it.

    [Te views expressed in this reply are not meant to attack anyone in particular, those cited are for example purposes only. The author takes full responsibility for the opinions expressed herein.]
  20. jada_marnew Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2003
    star 5
    If you can't justify action aside from "God told me too", then you really need to question the action.

    As an example, God told me to go to a person who I hadn't seen for 7 years and ask their forgiveness. This was very emotional and required me to humble myself. I did and it was a good thing.

    However, I can easily justify this outside of God. I had wronged this person and I needed to own up to it. I did the "right" thing.

    Now, when it comes to people making war in the name of God, if that is the only reason, then why? And yes, WardenX, I know you're going to cite examples from the Old Testament. When Israel returned from Eygpt, they went back to their land and found squatters. So, being the rightful owners of the land, the kicked the squatters out. I know there are other examples of incidences in the OT that you (and yes, I mean you WardenX) can up with however, when God told the Israelites to go wipe out whole peoples etc. it was because they were ceasing their inheritance.

    OK, ending before I make more of a fool of myself.

    EDIT: maybe posting in The War Room after 2 hours at Sam's Club and 2 glasses of wine isn't the best idea.
  21. wardenx Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    star 3
    JADA You're right in reference to the Old Testament being a tome of warmongering. And I would mention it but for one thing. Ask any Jew today if the Torah (the Old Testament to you and I) condones the use of such brutal tactics today and they will say a heartfelt NO. Whereas, in the Koran, it says specifically, "Where you find unbelievers (that's you and me), kill them." (Emphasis added by the author) There's really no misunderstanding that. But, you could say, rightly, that that's not how Islam is practiced today. I'd say you're right, to a point. The majority of Muslims don't say they should kill non-muslims wherever they find them, while others simply say that the war made against unbelievers is allegorical and meant to represent the spiritual battle against those who would attack the religion of Islam. I appreciate what the Koran and the Bible/Torah say but I can't see the reasoning for the butchering of innocent people. It says in the Koran specifically not to kill women, children, old men, the disabled, etc. It's very clear on this. Sala'Hadin was a wonderful leader and good muslim who was generous and kind to a fault. He was lauded as almost saitly by both the muslims and Christians of the time.
    But what has changed in the religion as it is practiced today that would lend to such violence that goes against what the Koran teaches?

    Master Yulen Ood That's my point exactly. We can't prove that someone is doing God's will. That's impossible, to my knowledge. All we have to go by for a religion is the actions of its followers, who are representative of what the religion teaches. If there are imams (Muslim equivalent of priests) who are saying that Muslims should rise up and fight the West (usually aimed and said specifically about the US) in any way they can. Condoning the use of suicide attacks as a method for martyrdom and the rewards of Allah in Heaven. It says in the Koran that you don't fight your Muslim brothers and support them. If the imams are saying this, then some Muslims, not all, are listening. Thus you get the dancing in the streets when the Sept. 11 attacks struck the US. Those people weren't the suicide bombers of radical Islam, they were the regular people who support the demise of America, in whatever form. Does this reflect on Islam itself? I say yes, but only as Islam is generally practiced today. The religion truly is one of peace, as a few of my Muslim friends tell me (and show me through actions and deeds). But the way it is practiced by many (though not the majority, by far) makes it a breeding ground for violent radicalism. Does this reflect on the religion? I'd say, no. Just the trend of social change that lead to the mutation of the words of God, written through His Prophet, Muhammed, that altered the basic peaceful premises of Islam into a retro-movement of a past time when the Middle East was a stronghold of Islam and the learning center of the world; where the Muslim world was powerful and self-sufficient and ready to make war on any who tried to make war on the people of Islam. Because it says in the Koran that, "Allah despises the aggressor." Therefore, Muslims are mandated by God not to ever initiate attacks, but only to fight when attacked - "Fight for the sake of God those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. God does not love the aggressors. Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you..."(Sutra 2:190-191). But then there is the edict from God: "Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal vigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate"(Sutra 9:73). I could give you examples of how the Ayatollah Khomeini preached both the eradication of non-Muslims and the vehement authorization of marriage to female children. (In fact, he said to this, "Do your best to ensure that your daughters do not see their first blood in your house." He called marriage to a girl before her first menstrual period "a devine blessing." Just a side barr
  22. wardenx Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    star 3
    I've been doing a lot more research on the implications in the religions of Islam and Christianity on human rights, women's rights, slavery, etc...

    Here's a bit of what I've learned:

    Both of these religions, in there purest form (that being direct words from their respective scriptures), do not encourage brutality or rape or abuses on women, children, innocents, etc. Funny thing is, in the 7th sentury, when Muhammad proclaimed the abolition of the polytheistic pantheon of gods that was predominant in Arabia and the Middle East at the time and instituted the new Islam (though converting by the sword), the burgeoning religion actually raised women and moral behavior up to a level that was unheard of in the Judeo/Christian world. After the Crusades, Islam, it seems, took much of their chauvinistic leanings from the Greek Christians, who veiled their women, treated them like second-class citizens and maintained a totally male-dominated society. It is speculated that this is where many of the still current beliefs toward women and non-muslims got their impetus. According to my studies, both Christ and Muhammad preached a way of peace, though Muhammad took a more Old Testament stand on war, and both wanted to put people on the path to the worship of the One God. But it seems that both of these men (no offense intended to those who believe Christ was not a man but God made flesh) would have their preachings twisted by later generations of adherants to the faiths they began. I don't think anyone would believe that Christ would have sanctioned the Crusades. In the same light, I don't think anyone who has read about Muhammad (or Ali or Sala'hadin) would believe that he would have sanctioned the abuses that are being committed today. There is a stark similarity between the two. The thing that has changed for both religions is also that which needs to be rethought. I understand that Christianity used to be very male-centric (and still is in some circles) but has grown to be much more tolerant of the role of females and gays and other religions, etc. Has Islam done the same? It seems to me that Islam, the way it is practiced by many Muslims around the world (though not by all, of course), has no outlet for allowing such changes because it still reads the Koran as a literal guide to the way an individual and a society today should behave. And the verbage of the Koran is often very harsh, especially when it comes to non-muslims and women and slaves (of which all three could be rolled up into one most of the time). Whereas Christianity has tried to grow with the expanded world consciousness of today, Islam has not.

    But, staying on the theme of this topic, does this reflect on Islam any more than the Crusades reflect on Christianity?
  23. jada_marnew Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2003
    star 5
    But, staying on the theme of this topic, does this reflect on Islam any more than the Crusades reflect on Christianity?

    Thanks, WardenX, for the research. I cannot answer the above question because I don't know enough about what Islam says.

    So, how about this . . . most of the churches I attended as a child, teenager, early 20s looked down on women in leadership. Teach Sunday school, bake casseroles, pray for the missionaries, teach Ladies bible study but don't even think about Preaching to the assembly!

    Mostly this was because of 1 passage I believe in Titus (I just got finished reading Titus and I remember seeing it there*) that refers to a leader/apostle/deacon, etc. being the husband of one wife. There's also other references to women keeping their yaps shut in church, etc.

    Many but not all of the churches today are recognizing the instruction of Paul to local churches and the difference between those and the tenets of faith.

    I still would not be totally comfortable with a church who had a woman as the head pastor. My church has 2 head pastors or co-pastors and they are men. But there are at least 5 women pastors that I know of on staff. There are women leading bible studies with men in them, etc.

    So, in the modern church or as the church now says -- the post modern church, the role of women as leaders has changed drastically.



    *1 Timothy 3:2
    Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self­controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

    1 Timothy 3:12
    A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.

    Titus 1:6
    An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife. . .


  24. jada_marnew Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2003
    star 5
    I just found the coolest website. It gives searches for bible passages in like 10 different translations!!!!!!

    [link=http://www.biblegateway.com] Here is the link to Biblegateway.com [/link]

    I'm so pysched!!!

    From there you can link to Gospelcom.net and it has tons of info including apologetics.

    WooHoo!!!! :D
  25. Master_Ronin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 2
    Rolls and acceptence of women has certainly changed, but gays? According to the bible, God is more against them than a lot of things. According to the Old Testament, they don't deserve to live.
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