Phx The War Room: Open Forum

Discussion in 'SouthWest Region Discussion' started by wardenx, Jul 9, 2003.

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  1. wardenx Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    star 3
    Ah... McCarthyism... There is this new book out that deals with the research done by one of the Conservative pundits who has taken a new view that McCarthy wasn't the evil man that history painted him to be. I'm trying to find the book because I want to buy it. I love military and political history.

    EDIT: Aha!! It's Ann Coulter's book called Treason. She's pretty harsh on the Liberals and Democrats in this country. LOL I'm going to read it so I can get a better idea of both sides of the issue.

    Stinkin' double posts!!
  2. PtrsonsZOO Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2001
    star 7
    wardenx I believe I will have to find myself that book... Maybe we could have a discussion in here about it after a few people have read it :) :D

    And believe it or not, I come from the school that no one point of view is "right." My most common saying when dealing w/ history academics is that the problem w/ history, is that's told by humans, and humans, by nature are too opinionated to be perfectly objective. We see what we want to see, how we want to see it. How else can you explain the re-writing of history every time there is a new wave of cultural identity. ;)
  3. wardenx Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    star 3
    Hey, Jada. The information that Dubbya had was based on the intelligence that had been gathered over the last ten years before the war in Iraq. Some, but not all, was from the MI6 in Great Britain. Though some may have been faulty or skewed by perspective and guestimation, it was enough to justify going over there. Intelligence is never perfect. It's all guesswork by analysists based off of pieces of information put together.

    EDIT:ZOO Agreed. History is told by the victors. Isn't that what they say? LOL I find that, the more I learn about the facts, the more I learn the the facts are skewed. It's a matter of gathering the information and putting together your own opinion of what happened. Of course, I apply that principle to most everything. ;) Religion, politics, history, strategy, etc...
  4. MexChewie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2002
    star 4
    The trouble is Wardenx, is that while intelligence is guesstimation what's coming to light is that the information was known to be erroneous. This is troubling because either someone knowingly lied to Bush or he himself lied, WMD

    Jada, you're right in asking why the democrats are waiting until now to question Iraq and WMD. Trouble was they are spineless, gutless cowards. They were afraid of committing political suicide if they questioned the president and his motives. If they had any real cajones, they would have done so back then.
  5. wardenx Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    star 3
    Sorry, Maxchewie but I don't see that they proved anything. In order to run an effective government we have to keep information confidential. Some of the things we'd reveal, even if it's sources of information, would compromise our intelligence abilities. So, I go back to my premise that, since we don't have enough information and the information we do have is partisan one way or another, I have to believe that the administration had more than the reasons they are giving for doing what they did. I admit the possibility of there being a cover-up but it's too easy to see shadowy enemies where there are none. Deception is a part of any government. I expect it. That's not the issue. What is in question is the agenda that is being kept and the methods with which we achieve them. I don't ever think I'm being told the whole truth by the government. So, knowing that, I have the choice of believing either that they are involved in some great conspiracy or that they are withholding information because of national security and the danger to operatives and intelligence sources and organizations.

    I think we should all believe what our hearts tell us, but railing aginst something that I don't know is hapening just makes no sense to me. Without facts it's just guesses. I'm not going to bad-mouth the administration because of hearsay.

    There was no proof in that article you posted that said there was no more information that the administration had before making its decision. I'm sure they didn't use just one piece of info to base their decision. I wouldn't and I'm sure they wouldn't either.
  6. PtrsonsZOO Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2001
    star 7
    Here's the only "Fact" that we can deal with as a democratic nation. You elect the officials in this country and it is not only your vote you are giving them, but your faith that they will do what is in the best of interest of yourself and those around you. When we finally come to understand that concept, I honestly believe that this system will work more effectively.

    Too many times we use other means by which to choose an elected official. When we can vote for someone we believe will do the job to the best of their ability, and w/ many of the same principles that we ourselves try to live by, only then will our government be "Of The People, For The People and By the People."
  7. MexChewie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2002
    star 4
    You have some valid points, wardenx, but I do disagree with you. What you are alluding to is one again the issue of Plausible deniablity. It's presented in such a way that people will tend to believe there is more information avaliable then there truly is. This then leads to the belief that information was withheld for national security (which could be considered either patriotic or naive) and others believe that the government is deceiving them (wacko vs vigilent). Proof is always so hard to come by because of the issue of plausible deniability. Even if the government completely open their files, the sides will find material to justify their point of view. Ultimately, it comes down to how much faith or lack of it, you have in the government and its current administration. Whether you believe their explanation or not.

    BTW, You give the government WAY too much credit to believe that their policy wasn't dictated by one item or one report. As humans, we can latch onto one thing and hold on for dear life. What makes you think a government is any different.

    P.S. I don't believe this one and I didn't believe the previous administration.
  8. MexChewie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2002
    star 4
    I couldn't have said it any better myself, ZOO!
  9. Princess_Skywalker_ Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2002
    star 4
    I get so disillusioned sometimes that I start to think there is basically nothing we can do. It seems nowdays that to be a politician, you must be corrupt, greedy, selfish and swear an oath to do nothing to help others that REALLY need it. OR if you do actually help others, it serves your purpose (or lobbyists) more than the actual cause, or you just do it in the worst/stupidest way possible, that costs the most, wastes the most time, helps the least, etc.

    "Despite all my rage, I'm still just a rat in a cage"
  10. wardenx Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    star 3
    Good morning, all. I think you've all got some valid points and I agree with what you're saying as possible, perhaps even probable. But, if we are going to focus on the limited information that we have and build houses of cards out of it, then we have to be prepared for the worst. I know governments can become corrupt and that ours is no different than any other. I know there is corruption in our government. But, speaking from experience as someone who had a Top Secret White House clearance in the Army and worked at the White House and Pentagon all the time, I knew many of our Representatvies and Senators of the time. I've met a few that were corrupt through-and-through. But most of them are good-hearted men and women who truly want to make a difference working within a system that doesn't make it easy. Many of them have great intentions that have to be tweaked to fit into the bounds of our legislative and judicial model. Can you imagine how difficult it is to try to ake changes in our system?

    Then there is the issue of what each of them considers the "right" thing to do. Each has their own motives for doing what they do and voting the way they do and these motives collide. But that is because our system is designed to be representative of the people. Look at just this board or the JCC, for example. A large divergence of opinion is present here. If the representatives we, as a people, choose are to be truly representative of the common opinion of those who elected them, then you have to expect an equal divergence of opinion within the legislative bodies of which they are a part.

    So, there is nothing wrong with the government or our system except for the fact that some bad seeds do get in and do some damage. We all want freedoms and we all want safety. Well, some of your freedoms will have to be sacrificed in order to have greater security. That is what our country is founded on in our legal system. Take away freedoms in order to insure security. It's a matter of to what degree we are free, and I think it's pretty good so far.

    The current administration is doing what every administration has done since we started this country. It's no different now. Why make more of an issue out of it now? We were right to go over to Iraq. Period (IMHO). If the President made a wrong choice based on forged documents, it wouldn't be the first time. That doesn't diminish our purpose or the validity of our system. The President makes choices based mostly off of the information he is given, which is gathered by a whole host of other people, from executive staff to entry level anylists. The idea is to pair the information down to it's barest true facts. Given the vast amount of data that is processed through this system, I don't find it amazing that something slipped past. But then, I don't believe that the government made its choice to go to war or that Iraq had WMD based on one piece of information.

    The President may be human and subject to human foibles, but our system allows little latitude for gross error on the part of one man or woman.

    BTW, I also want to say that it's so much nicer talking with you guys about these things than it is on the front lines at the JCC. It's a war zone over there. LMAO

    Thanks folks. ;)
  11. jada_marnew Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2003
    star 5
    I want to add that I agree that this board so far has people who are much more respectful of each other's opinions than the JCC. I know I'm very careful about what I put out there and on the JCC I felt that you were more likely to get flamed. I hope we keep the level of respect up in The War Room.

    I recently read an article about Homeowner's Associations and how some are just going way to far, that the balance between the right to own property and the restrictions placed on the property owner by an HOA are getting out of line.

    I for one have always had a problem with property ownership in the first place. Being a gypsy at heart, I've never believed in owning a set boundary of land. Now I am a homeowner and I have all these rules and regulations placed upon me because we bought in a community. If I own it, why can't I do what I want with it?
  12. PtrsonsZOO Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2001
    star 7
    The fact of the matter w/ HOA's is that if people stop buying homes in covenant controlled communities, then they could not exist. Now the problem w/ the scenario is that this means more affordable housing is always in an HOA controlled development. You have to go out and buy your own land, build your own house, and get your own contractor to avoid these insidious beasts.

    I think that if enough people go against the developers penchant for control, then you will see the change. Because when it is all boiled down, the reason HOA's exist, is because the developers wish to use each "community" that they create as advertisment of their abilities. HOA's maintain that sense of order. But, as with all things, too much power is a bad thing, and the charter's for which the HOA's are founded on were created, not by the homeowners, but by the developers themselves.
  13. jada_marnew Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2003
    star 5
  14. VoidDancer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2002
    star 5
    Yeah, I ran into them a while ago.

    My friends and I were leasing a house for 2 years in an area with a HOA, they started sending us letters because I would park in the street since it was only a 3 car garage. I called them up and told them to send me a rule list, they told me it would cost $70 for a copy. I then invited them to file suit or any fines at any time they wished and explain to the judge while we have to pay to get the rules....never heard back from them, just kept getting the letters.

    My current house I bought for several reasons, but a big one was no HOA precisely because it's mine and I'm not going to be dicated to like that.

    To me they're like unions, great idea...bad implementation.
  15. wardenx Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    star 3
    So, HOA's are mostly run by the builder/contractors of these communities? I don't know much about them but I do know that I cna't stand the idea of them, for the mosst part. I understand that they do help maintain the property value of your home, though. That's about the only good they do. I, for one, don't want anyone telling me what I can and can't do on my property (as long as it's not against the law, such as rape and murder,e tc.) Certainly not whether I can have my lawn a little longer than others or trees that have to be cut a certain way, blah, blah, blah... It's rediculous.

    EDIT: I'm with ya, Biscuit-boy!! I tried to buy a house and was looking at only the ones with NO HOA!! That's Sosialism at it's worst (not that there's really a best).
    LOL
  16. VoidDancer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2002
    star 5
    Yeah they are. They do what they can to enforce the maintenance of a "beautiful community." So yards must be trimmed and constantly clean, cleaned up within so many days of a storm. Only certain kinds of decorations are allowed during christmas time and only for so long. Things like that to maintain a certain "feel." They even police back yards within the high walls that everybody has to keep their privacy.
  17. wardenx Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    star 3
    HOA's infringe on privacy rights, IMHO. What's the point to buying property if you have to be accoutable to someone else for what you can do with it, how you can decorate it, how you can landscape it, how you can build on it, etc...?
  18. PtrsonsZOO Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2001
    star 7
    Which is why when you buy the house, in order to buy th ehouse, you have to sign off that you agree to abide by the rules and regulations of the HOA.

    And just to clarify: HOA's are chartered by the developer in such a fashion that wiping out rules is 5X as difficult than creating new rules. THey are then turned over (after a certain period of time - like when all the homes are sold) to an "elected" governing body. And I have found that inept, narcissistic, politico wannabes are the ones who manage to get into those positions. Think Mrs. Cravitz, on a Yuppie scale ;)
  19. VoidDancer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2002
    star 5
    I am pleased to remember the parties every weekend though back there....we caused the neighbors fits. Then they'd see the cop car pull up and be happy....until the cop (Roy) started hugging everybody cause he was a buddy of ours. They weren't happy already because one of our roomies, Marsha, was African....yeah, it was one of "those" high income nieghborhoods. It was such a pleasure having a bunch of college people upsetting the status quo there.
  20. Princess_Skywalker_ Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2002
    star 4
    wardenx:
    So, there is nothing wrong with the government or our system except for the fact that some bad seeds do get in and do some damage.

    That is your opinion and I have to say I HIGHLY disagree. Yes there are governments MUCH worse than ours, and yes there are SOME politicians that DO want to make a difference, but....

    Being the role model that we are to so many other countries, having the power that we do, especially when you consider how long other countries have been around compared to our own, well personally, I feel we need to strive to constantly make things better. We are NOT doing enough. We need to live up to the responsibility. This country was founded for a reason. People came to better their lives. To gain control of their lives, get out from under the governments control, the church's control, etc. And I won't even go into taxes. :p

    It seems like in some ways, we are reverting back to those ways. In everything from corrupt government to ridiculous taxes, to intolerance regarding race, religion, etc.

    ALSO, you said:
    HOA's infringe on privacy rights, IMHO. What's the point to buying property if you have to be accoutable to someone else for what you can do with it, how you can decorate it, how you can landscape it, how you can build on it, etc...?

    This is exactly how I feel about the government in some areas. There should be laws to help govern society, NOT to parent them like little children.

    I view the government like my parents....They had the chance to instil values and the difference between right and wrong in me (that's what laws are there for, to guide people), but they do NOT need to know everything about my life, NOR do they get the right to nag the hell out of me anymore. It's my life and I'll live it as I please. If I break a rule, I deal with the consequences. But I DON'T need parents CONSTANTLY watching every move I make. People should be allowed to think for themselves and decide what is right for them.
    I've never agreed with the just obey, ask no questions way of thinking that some groups use (communism, some religions, cults, etc.)

    I personally feel that the government could accomplish a lot more for the greater good if they stopped trying to control everything. Cause let's face it, you will never get everyone to fall in line. People are unique and different and simple solutions that blanket the problem never solve anything. One BIG thing that comes to mind here is the "war on drugs" and gun control. Do they REALLY think they are ever going to wipe guns and drugs completely off the map? Nice ideas are just that. Nice. Not realistic. What we need are REAL solutions to problems, not just what we WISH would happen.
  21. PtrsonsZOO Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2001
    star 7
    When I was sharing a home w/ the "Annoying 8" we had a neighborhood association (HOA Lite), and they were always complaining about the # of cars, the parties (of which there were many :p ), the weird hours (some of us worked split shifts and nights), the grass, the mechanical work, the contruction, the camper, the garage being a workshop, the number of people living in the house, the stereos, etc.... Basically, they hated the fact this was the only rental house on the block and nothing we did violate any of the city ordinances, we just irritated them to no end.

    I think my favorite complaint was the fact that we did a Haunted Yard one year for Halloween. Scared the bejeezus out of all the kids (and some of the parents). They said we were using obscene and dangerous decorations for our home.... The only thing obscene was the cussing one of the parents strung out over 30 minutes after he nearly wet himself when the "dummy" at the door reached out and gave his kids their candy. [face_devil]

    We had every kid in the neighborhood looking for us to do it again the next year, but after 3 visits from the cops that night and 6, count them 6, lovely letters from the NA and lots of other little notes left on our doorstep, we decided it was way too much trouble. When the kids asked as why we weren't setting up again, we told them to ask their parents :p
  22. wardenx Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    star 3
    Hey Princess Don't get me wrong. I don't think our government should be meddling its hands in most of the places it does. I disagree with many of the things that are being done and most of the things we call laws. I believe laws are meant to guide people, not govern them. Therefore, the legal system we have is defunct IMHO. What I'm trying to say with all of my support for what we have is that it is the system the we have to deal with and there will be no sudden chage of it. We can dislike what it is but that won't change anything unless we, as a people and through our representatives, work to change it. The system works. Just because we don't like some of the things that go on now, doesn't mean the system is wrong. We can't blame it on the administration because that's like saying all PFFers are the same and only talk about computers, for example. The system works.

    Good to see you again, too (so to speak). ;)
  23. PtrsonsZOO Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2001
    star 7
    After a lengthy conversation w/ one of my advisors I have taken to asking this question of people now.

    Based on our current constitution and the fouding document of the Declaration of Independence, do you believe that you have the right to overthrow or seceed from our government should it prove to be "unjust?"
  24. Princess_Skywalker_ Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2002
    star 4
    wardenx:
    lol yeah good to talk to you again as well... ;)
    I agree with you on quite a few points, I just feel that personally, our system ISN'T working. I like the ideas, I just think it needs some tweaking. Same for the justice system. Don't even get me started on the fact that you get more prison time for having a sheet of acid in your pocket then for raping, molesting, even murdering someone. And the way people are suing everyone nowdays. ARGH. It's sad.

    PtrsonsZOO:
    I believe I have the right to do anything I want. Period. :p Whether I will actually DO something is another story entirely. ;) But I never let anyone control me.
    The consequences of my actions and my own personal feelings and values will determine what I will and won't do. Not an old piece of paper.
  25. PtrsonsZOO Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2001
    star 7
    BTW-If you look at historical documents, you will find that this has always been a litigious state... Comes from the fact that this country was founded by a bunch of whiners who couldn't get along w/ the rest of Europe and came over here to "make it the way they wanted it."

    Princess but that is personal freedom, which is different than say of the PFF decided the State of Arizona no longer saw to their needs as citizens and decided to Seceed from the State and create the Republic of Prescott. Following all legal criteria for representation and petitioning the USA for entrance as a duly recognized state. Do you feel that this is within your rights as a US citizen?
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