Phx The War Room: Open Forum

Discussion in 'SouthWest Region Discussion' started by wardenx, Jul 9, 2003.

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  1. PtrsonsZOO Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2001
    star 7
    See, I knew all those science classes and reading all those Sagan books would pay off one day ;)

    And Mick, I can understand your reservations, which is one of the main reasons why I rarely discuss my own perceptions of faith, but this has been a great venue for that kind of discourse. :) Thanks wardenx!
  2. EmprsHandMick Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2001
    star 4
    Recent events within the Church hasn't helped with public perception of my faith any either :(
  3. jada_marnew Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2003
    star 5
    MICK,

    I think in all honesty that pretty soon the recent events of the catholic church will crop up in many other groups. Right now, the media is having a catholic feeding frenzy.

    I was raised catholic for about the first 8 years of my life and I still love alot of things about the catholic church. I love the community that I see here in Tucson in many of the churches.

    Faith is the shard we hold onto in the darkest part of the night.
  4. EmprsHandMick Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2001
    star 4
    I don't doubt that you're correct Jada, in the meantime though the media is working to make it look like Catholics are villanous and that we should all be questioning our faith because of the failings of a small proportion of the multitude of leaders within the Church. My fear is just that if this goes to far it may actually lead to some kind of lashing out at the Catholic community
  5. Master_R0nin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2002
    star 2
    I can speak personally that other religions have been glared at in the past. Mine, for example.

    Anyone remember a little town called Waco, Texas? The "Wackos in Waco," led by David Koresh (sp)? David Koresh was born and raised as a Seventh Day Adventist, and continued to call himself that. For a while, we were not even considered a religion by a lot of people, but a cult. For a couple years after, when someone would ask what my faith was, and I told them, the usual reply was "Wasn't that the Waco cult thing?" Talk about embarrassment.

    And then there's Black Sabbath (well, not anymore). And I'm about 99.9999999% sure Ozzy wasn't talking about Jews. Jews are the only other religion besides SDA (to my knowledge) to call their day of worship Sabbath. And having a Jewish friend, we use the word Sabbath a WHOLE lot more. Now whether an SDA pissed him off (can't imagine why <angel face> ) or whatever, I'm not sure of the reason for the group title, but it's inflections for SDAs was not good. Maybe someone who has a better background in music than I can esplain.

    Speaking of mines, has anyone seen the mine disposing trucks? But you really can't call it a truck, more like a mechanical Bawhemouth (Pulp Fiction reference ;) ). This massive vehicle with a huge, 6" thick armored scoop in the front that they use to comb an area suspect of mines. Spend all day sweeping a field, not finding anything, then just as you're getting sleepy you find one. Talk about burying the needle on the wake up scale.

    <Edit> I personally don't have anything against Ozzy, except for his previous choice in group names. HUGE fan of Iron Man and No More Tears (but then, who doesn't like No More Tears?)
  6. EmprsHandMick Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2001
    star 4
    Actually Sabbath is a term common in many religions for a day of worship. Including most if not all Christian religions and as I understand (appologies if I'm wrong) some pagan religions
    And I believe that "Black Sabbath" was a reference to satan worship if I'm not mistaken.

    Haven't seen the things, Ronin, sounds interesting though
  7. jada_marnew Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2003
    star 5
    Actually, I don't like Ozzy. Lita Ford's another story.

    As for the mines, wouldn't it be great if we do have the technology to locate these mines if a nice philanthropist did something worthwhile with their money and made a tidy contribution to get mines cleaned up.

    Did anyone catch this? Bush's response to the criticism about intelligence, the decision to go to war, etc? It went something like:

    "It was a darn good decision"

    Got to love them Texans!
  8. PtrsonsZOO Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2001
    star 7
    The main problem w/ the failing of some of those leaders, was the systematic collusion of the greater church organization to obscure from the law and the people it was sworn to lead the truth about what was happening. And the obscuring of that truth seemed to be of a higher concern than the solution of the problem itself. When it became common practice to simply transfer these offenders, placing right back into the precarious positions, that's where the church organization failed its people.

    However, I believe that much of what you say is right, this is not solely a Catholic problem. It is easier to move the problem than to admit it exists and work to solve it. I have seen the same behavior in several denominations, so I do believe that eventually it will be exposed in the media there as well. The reason the media is focusing on the Catholics, is because it was actually policy, not just assumed practice. Also because it sells more than protestants. And that's a sad truth, mostly because it is human nature to see the big things fall from grace... The Catholic Church has held such a powerful position in Western Civilization for so long, that many people delight in seeing its power taken away, in any form.
  9. jada_marnew Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2003
    star 5
    ZOO and Mick,

    I just ordered this book:

    Adventures in Missing the Point: How the Culture-Controlled Church Neutered the Gospel

    I read some of it last night at my book club meeting. It's a point counter point type book on major issues in the church, life, etc. I'll let you know how it is.
  10. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    I know I'm late on this, but the discussion's been so lively and good that I've been hesitant to join in. I'm Catholic as well, and reading the thoughts here has been very interesting. Being a Catholic these days is difficult sometimes, and I'm amazed at the judgmental words and attitude that some people have. People seem so able to turn their criticism on others, but when it comes to themselves, it's a different story. Faith is a personal thing, and that should be remembered by those who so easily judge others. On a somewhat related note, it has been said that anti-Catholicism is basically the last acceptable prejudice. Not sure if that's entirely true, but it feels like it sometimes.


    The situation of the past year or so has been an extremely difficult one (as has already been mentioned here), and its made people look at what they really believe. At least, that's how its been for me.
  11. Master_R0nin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2002
    star 2
    EmprsHandMick, When I was a child, and non-SDA friends (but Christians) would talk to me, and I'd say something about Sabbath, or Sabbath School, they had never heard of it. As an adult, when the subject comes up, everyone thinks I'm Jewish. I've personally never heard anyone outside of my faith or Judaism call their day of worship "Sabbath."

    BTW, if anyone is curious, my views on what happens after you die are almost entirely based out of Revelations.
  12. jada_marnew Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2003
    star 5
    ROnin, to me, if someone says Sabbath, it means the day that you keep holy. I don't differentiate between the Jewish Sabbath, SDA Sabbath and the day I keep as the Sabbath - Sunday.
  13. wardenx Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    star 3
    The whole witch hunt against Catholics doesn't stem from any angst toward the religion, in my opinion. It's a combonation of things, I'm sure. Like the uproar about the child abuse issues (and molestation) and the lies by the church and its representatives. I think the real reason that most of the persecution that happens to any religion is because people don't try to understand. Society has turned so limp and ineffectual in its self-dictated moral uprightness that it hunts down what it sees as wrong-doers. The problem is the definition of "wrong-doer." Our society wants equality for all when there is no such thing. They want free speach when the is no such thing. They want freedom of religion when there is no such thing. We have freedoms only in relation to what is socially acceptable by a majority who have the power to institute these freedoms and maintain them. But our system of government has bent so far as to be unrecognizable anymore from what it was intended to be. We have people who think that their lives are more important that that of others so they whine and moan and pule until they get some sort of restitution for perceived wrongs commited against them and/or their loved ones. The squeeky wheel gets the greese. This process goes on and on until it becomes common practice for courts to acquiesce to these whiners. I'm sure these people think that some wrong has been done to them, but it's usually something that I'd say, "Stop whining and get over it." But that's just me. LMAO

    To put this into perspective on the point, that's the reason I think that the Cathloic church is being trounced so badly now. Our whiny society puts up a fit about every little thing (which may not actually be abuse or molestation but can be twisted into that because of the tendancy of our soft society to see the worst for personal gain). They put up a fit and it pays off. I'm not saying that monetary gain is the motivationg factor, just that the way things are now, people can whine about anything and win their case because some lawyer can spin it the right way. We coddle people today and that has torn down most of our moral fortitude as a country and a people.
    **WardenX steps down and slides the soapbox back under the table for later use.**
  14. jada_marnew Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2003
    star 5
    Why should people be able to sue those who molested them? I haven't heard of any cases of adults or children suing their parents or another family member for monetary compensation due to abuse. No amount of money is ever going to heal the scars and wounds a person who has been abused carries. And turning those scars into an excuse to be awarded compensation is just as ridiculous as people suing McDonald's for making them fat. SH!+ happens. Heal the past, live the present and dream the future.

    So, anyone want to take pot shots because I just won a settlement for a car accident? I can tell you right now. That money will never take the pain away.
  15. wardenx Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    star 3
    Even if it's for justice, the motivation for many of our legal cases in this country are founded on the disproportionate feelings of preceived damage to ones body and or mind. People have a selfish tendancy to seek recompense for things that should be learning experiences, not civil or federal cases. It's not justice - it's Just Us. We want... We deserve... We are wronged...

    there seems to be little sense of responsibility anymore. It has become easier and more profitable to blame someone or something else. Our parents are the reson why we are the way we are or our upbringing or the treatment we got as kids make us do the things we do. Like Ronin said in another thread about his childhood experiences; they shouldn't stop you from making positive changes in your life. My childhood wasn't good by any stretch of the imagination but I say, "What you are is your parent's fault... If you stay that way, it's YOUR fault." People need to step up and take responsibility for their actions.
  16. jada_marnew Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2003
    star 5
    I wanted to add that my last post was in no way meant to be a put down to anyone who has been abused. I have all empathy for those who have.

    Money is not the answer to healing wounds.
  17. TK-4752 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2002
    star 5
    Part of the reason the Church is getting all the flak because it's SUPPOSED to be 100% pure, no additives, no real people with no real quirks. I've been through enough of similar-but-not-so-similar situations -- you spend your whole life doing the right thing, mostly staying out of trouble, and all it takes is ONE...TINY...LITTLE...BAD...THING that ONE person takes notice of, and it blows your complete image. Oh well, I say. I still support the Church and da Popa.

    The Church has handled this all amazingly well. Too many people point the finger at the Church (OK, true, they DID cover some stuff up), but nobody cares about companies screwing people over or all the child abuse and stuff that goes on. All they care about is a handful of priests that have had the misfortune of being human. I can't even begin to think of what it must be like to take a vow of celibacy -- having to live in an environment like that surely has to take a toll on someone's sanity. You delve into all the fetishes that spring up daily, and it's all because someone just wants something out of the ordinary that isn't sanitized like everyday life -- imagine being a priest and NEVER having had a normal intimate-of-sorts encounter, and knowing that you never WILL have one -- that's totally gotta make a person go a little nutty and develop even less socially and legally acceptable fetishes than the more "popular" ones.

    Honestly, hardly any of my friends know this, but after having been raised Catholic, and having a good 6-7 year stint as a hardcore Satanist because I had nothing else better to do in my youth but smite God, I reverted back to being Catholic -- mostly because I love the dark, ruthless history of the Church, and Satanism gets boring after awhile. :) I still see the Church as a Dark Empire clothed in white, trying to do nothing more than bring Peace and Order to the universe. Really, is there something WRONG with that?

    It's hard getting back into actual "church," though, because of all the stuff surrounding it. I once heard the perfect saying that summed it right up for me -- "Christianity wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the Christians." The boring sanitized ones that flutter around the wifey's church (non-denominational) spend most Sundays complaining about the Church and why their Church is so much better. Yeah -- if they could only see past each others' fake smiles, it'd be a totally different story. *shrug*

    Oh yeah, and Catholics throw better Church parties -- they get alcohol. :D

  18. jada_marnew Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2003
    star 5
    Oh yeah, and Catholics throw better Church parties -- they get alcohol.

    Unless you're Lutheran. They allow beer and wine. ;)

    One of the things I truly HATE is churches that bash other churches. I deal with that all the time and my response is "There is an indigenous church for each individual". Just like faith must be worked out individually, individuals must find the church they are comfortable with. Not everyone wants to go to a "contemporary" service with loud worship that even tends to be somewhat punk (ok, that's the service I go to). Many people prefer traditional service. Many people can't even walk in the door of a church but if it's in the park they'll go.

    I see church bashing as a sign of insecurity. If the bashing is coming from the pulpit, then I see it as a sign of someone setting themselves up as a cult leader. (I just dealt with this with someone for a couple of years. It was very difficult to watch them finally extricate themselves out of a church where the pastor was in my opinion a cult leader.)
  19. wardenx Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    star 3
    Agreed, TK. I think the reasons for what we see in relationshops as a whole, be they personal, societal, national or global, are merely symptoms of a deeper disease: the disease of fear. Fear of who we are and what we are and where we are and where we are going and, and, and... The list goes on and on but it's still fear. What do most people do when they are afraid? They run until they can't run anymore and then they lash out in whatever way they can. Some people skip the running and jump right to lashing out. It's fear and that is the base upon which we have built all our anger and hatred. Fear.
  20. wardenx Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    star 3
    Wow. There is so much war going on right now in the world. I am amazed at it each time I read the news. I love to keep abreast of current events in the world and politics (among other things) and all the effort just seems a dismal failure. I'm not doom-saying or anything like that. I'm just noting that it's a harsh world out there.

    So here's my thought and a question:

    Conflict in not only natural but necessary.

    But when is it too much?
  21. Master-Yulen-Ood Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    I can answer that or at least offer my perspective on it, but it may sound a bit preachy and religious, so you've been warned.

    *pulls out soapbox, steps up onto it*

    Conflict is absolutely necessary, however, it should be our goal to overcome it. Yet how can we know when our actions are justified?

    In the Bible, God has said "thou shalt not kill" and in another place "thou shalt destroy". Believing that God is perfect, both of these commandments were right and just for their particular circumstance. War is sometimes necessary, even God agrees that it is necessary at times. He himself has destroyed cities, sent plagues, and even flooded the whole earth saving only 8 people. Yet his actions are just and fair. Do we understand how?, probably not. Are we capable of making similar decisions and being equally just?, probably not. However, God has provided us with a way to determine right from wrong and with the ability to make the choice between the two. I believe that God and is the sole posessor of truth and as such is the only being 100% capable of being 100% right 100% of the time. So In my mind we should look to him to see if our actions measure up. One of God's ancient prophets had this to say about the matter:

    "Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

    But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

    Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.

    For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

    For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God."

    How does this relate to war? Easy, are we fighting for the right reasons? Have we tried all other ways of resolving the conflict? (The story about the Jews escaping slavery in Egypt is a good example of how we must try many alternative means of resolving any given issue before resorting to violence). Have we given the opposing side sufficient opportunity to have a change of heart? Have we looked in ourselves to see if we need to be the ones who has a change of heart? Can we honestly feel that the Spirit of Christ within each of us (our conscience, intuition, the Holy Spirit, our gut feeling, or whatever you want to call it) approves of the action? If you can honestly and humbly run through these questions, and still have to go to war, then it is most likely right. Are we in any position to understand the true motive of our political leaders? No. So ultimately, we just have to trust them to trust in the divine and not lead us in unholy paths.

    *steps down from soapbox, a bit winded, and moves aside*
  22. wardenx Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    star 3
    Very well said, brother. Unfortunately, I have to say that it is human nature to judge by our own circumstances. If my life, from beginning to the present, has formulated my views in a certain way that differs from yours, then you and I will have two different ideas as to what is "right and wrong." Our prespectives will be different so that our judgements will be drastically different. So, how do you "judge" what is "right" and what is "wrong?" Compared to what? Who's decision is the clearest and morally correct?
  23. jada_marnew Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2003
    star 5
    Judgement . . . ah, my favorite. The bible says in Matthew 7:1 "Judge not lest ye be judged". We humans are so good at judging one another, holding each other to impossible standards, holding ourselves to impossible standards . . . setting up ourselves and everyone around us for failure.



  24. PtrsonsZOO Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2001
    star 7
    If you want to get Biblical.... There are numerous passages which can how what is the ideal for resolving conflict. I have however found that the most important piece of philosophy in that regard comes from Romans 13:8-10 (New Revised Standard)

    Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not covet"; and any other commandment, are summed up in this word, "Love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore, love is the fulfilling of the law.

    Another good passage is Romans 12:14-21 The last line being, "Do not overcome evil by evil, but overcome evil with good." Of course my Great Grandfather used to say it differently, "Kill 'em w/ kindness, it's more fun." ;)
  25. Master_R0nin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2002
    star 2
    One thing I wanted to jump in and say about God and war. When the word genocide is mentioned, what comes to mind? For 99.9% of the population (I pulled that figure out of the air, but it sounds good), Nazi Germany's war against Jews.

    This year I decided to start reading my Bible from cover to cover, like a good book should be read. As I'm doing so, old stories are coming out at me in a new light, for instance, the journey across Canaan. The Israel's, with God, were the most successful group at genocide. They wiped out entire civilizations, men women, and children, some battles without any of their own blood spilt.

    Needless to say, I can tell that my reading the Bible at this point in my life is going to be very interesting.
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