Senate The Weekly Discussion of Military Technology

Discussion in 'Community' started by Mr44, Nov 27, 2003.

  1. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    Apparently the 45 GAP does the same thing as the 40 S&W. More power than a 9mm, in a smaller package than a 45 ACP.

    This guy has some info on the 45 GAP, and just about every other round. He's apparently a reloader, so how knows all about velocities and bullet weights and such.

    Also, I'm not sure if the rifle I posted a pic of is an AK variant. On the Tula museum page where I found the pic, it said that it was the main competitor of the AK. It was apparently designed by a guy named Korobov. I wouldn't be suprised if it used the basic operating system of the Kalashnikov though, like just about every other Russian rifle.
  2. Brett_Bass Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2003
    star 4
    It sure looked like an Akie derivitive, based on the appearance of some of its various components (sight assemblies, magazine, even the pistol grip).

    *shrugs*

    I've never seen it before, though, so I guess I can't comment with any degree of certainty.
  3. Darth_Asabrush Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2000
    star 5
  4. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    Great links!

    It's kind of neat that the RAF is still using the Canberra as a patrol craft..

    I hope that is a postive reflection on the Canberra's abilities, rather than any kind of budget reality..
  5. eaglejedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2001
    star 5
    Old aircraft can still be useful, especially if they're more reliable than more modern models. Some old aircraft have unusual benefits in a modern combat environment.

    They should paint the Swordfish black and use them in the Fleet Air Arm for night attacks.
  6. TripleB Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 4
    Great Links, Darth Arabush. When I was in Europe I got to see some of the British weaponry and was impressed. Thanks for posting it.
  7. Brett_Bass Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2003
    star 4
    Hilariously, in the 'Royal Marines Commando Weapons' section of the wepbage, neither the SA80A2 nor the C7 (Canadian M16) were listed...
  8. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    What is the "Long Range Large Calibre Rifle"? I can't make it out very well in the pic on the site.
  9. General Cargin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 4
    Are you talking about the L115A1 sniper rifle? If so, that appears to be the UK designation for the Accuracy International Super Magnum. As far as I can tell, there are three variants, all to do with the calibre of bullet fired. It looks like it can be chmbered for 7mm Remington Magnum, .300 Winchester Magnum or .338 Lapua ammunition.
  10. Brett_Bass Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2003
    star 4
    The Brits use the .338 don't they?
  11. Darth_Asabrush Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2000
    star 5
    The Royal Marines don't tend to use the M16. They use the SA80A2.

    The SAS (Special Air Service) [The British Army's elite regiment] and the Royal Marine SBS (Special Boat Squadron) [basically the Marine version of the SAS] do tend to use the M16 but the British military don't tend to say much about anything regarding its special forces. It reluctantly ackowledged their presence in the conflict against the Taliban and later in Iraq because the US military made alot of noise about them. You won't find much on the official websites about either service.

    EDIT: My mistake! I re-read your post Bass :)
  12. Lord_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2002
    star 4
    Darth Asabrush-the SAS and SBS(Special Boat SQUADRONS not Service)use the M-16 with a 203 grenade launcher.This combo is deadly in combat.The reasons why both the SAS and SBS don´t use the SA-80 on most of their the jobs are many,but the main factor is because you have to use your trigger finger to change the safety catch.

  13. Brett_Bass Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2003
    star 4
    SWAT Magazine ran an article recently that detailed numerour and continuing accounts of the SA80-series of weapons being prone to failures, especially in terms of failures-to-feed from STANAG 30-round box magazines. In addition, the weapon's baseline weight is simply inordinate for its capabilities.

    However, I seem to recall Mr44 praising its optical sight.
  14. Lord_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2002
    star 4
    A relevant question-what is the best infantry weapon available?I´ll go for the M-16 with the 203 grenade launcher.Better to have gun-fired grenades than normal hand grenades.

    What´s your opinion?
  15. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    Hey BB,

    Well, that's what the British SFOR soldiers loved about the rifle, the sight..

    But I just looked at it, not fired it-"comparing notes, so to speak"..

    Very intutive though

    But that was their greatest complaint(about the feeding problems)

    The British troops even had a nickname for the rifle, the "pop and squeak," (or something like that, I forget the exact slang term) because the rifle would misfeed quite regularly..

    The perfect military rifle? Hmmm... Call me blindly progressive, but I would still go with the M4..

    It is just too handly to allow a 50-70fps drop in velocity diminish its capabilities..

    However, hand grenades still have their place..

    Remember, once launched, the 203 rnd has a minimum amount of spin before it arms itself, so up close, it becomes a baseball..
  16. Darth_Asabrush Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2000
    star 5
    Lord Fett, I know, that's what I was saying :)

    It bugs me when people refer to the SBS as Special Boat Service.

    The SAS = Special Air Service (being a regiment of the British Army operating in squadrons)

    The SBS = Special Boat Squadron (being a squadron of the Royal Marines)
  17. Brett_Bass Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2003
    star 4
    Either the M16A4 or the M4A1 makes a fine weapon. Right now, I'd give the nod to the M4, but I'd hardly turn down a '16. Only 'complaint' I have about it is the over-long stock.
  18. Lord_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2002
    star 4
    Sorry about that DA-I´m just used that people call Service to the SBS.

    On a side note,the SAS guys are getting paranoid about OPSEC.Since that wave of books about the SAS ended(it started with Bravo Two Zero),the Regiment is getting really paranoid.I heard that they expelled Peter DeLaBilliere(commander of UK forces during Desert Storm) from a ceremony in honor of one of his comrades because he wrote a book about the SAS.


    On infantry rifles:what about the G3 with collapsible stock?It fires the powerful 7.62mm NATO round,it´s accurate,easy to maintain.It´s a little old,though
  19. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    well, the G3 is certainly an excellent weapon(being based on a Spanish knock-off of the outstanding FN-FAL)

    I would have to say the definitive 7.62mm battle rifles are the M-14 and the FN-FAL.

    Generally, the dooming feature of 7.62mm battle rifles(besides the weight) is the recoil.

    rifles simply cannot be fired automatically in 7.62mm.

    Either you make the rifles semi-auto only and sacrafice "fire dominance," or you basically make them machine gun weight (but then why not just use a machine gun?)

    For example, based on doctrine of the time, I believe the original M-14's were automatic, like the heavy BAR.

    However, with their relatively light weight (and the M-14 is not a "light" rifle) troops would end up breaking their shoulders or dumping 5 of the 6 shots into the air..

    As a result, the US removed the auto from the M-14.( I think all of Britian's FN-FAL's were always semi-auto)

    In the modern battlefield, with greater specialization of roles, the 7.62mm family is outstanding as a support/sniper weapon.
  20. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    "(being based on a Spanish knock-off of the outstanding FN-FAL)"

    Are you sure? As I understand it, the FAL was developed from the SAFN, which was a prewar project put on ice during the occupation. I assume the "Spanish knockoff" you're talking about is the CETME, which is based on the wartime German Stg45(it never went past prototype stage before the war ended). Germany later used the CEMTE's roller-delayed blowback system, which was the same system used in the Stg45. As far as I know, the FAL and the G3 aren't related.
  21. Brett_Bass Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2003
    star 4
    Props to Saint of Killers for general firearms knowledge...
    :)

    Impressive.
  22. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    Yes, quite outsanding Saint...

    The CETME and the FAL are different, because both were designed simultaneously..

    The story of the G3 is slightly more complicated.

    Remember, both family of weapons began life based off of German Mauser designs during the war.

    However, post-war Germany really wanted the FAL, but since Belgium still didn't trust a militarily strong Germany, they didn't license the specs..

    As a result, Germany adopted the CETME as the G3, after incorporating some features from the FAL.

    So, the G3 is really a Spanish knock-off of the FAL, using original German technology..

    (to see the rifle HK really wanted to produce, look up Steyr's model 58, which was used by the Austrian military)

    Sometimes the real world is stranger than fiction..
  23. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    I'm still not sure what you're saying. The G3 and the FAL aren't related, except in being similar concepts('battle rifles'). The FAL, being based on the SAFN which was designed before the war, is gas operated and uses a tilting bolt. It had no German influence. The G3 is based on the CETME which used the roller-delayed blowback action of the Stg45.

    Yes, Germany wanted the FAL and was unable to purchase a license, so they purchased a license to make the CETME, made a few modifications, and you get the G3. I don't see how the CETME is a knockoff of the FAL. If anything, it's a knockoff of the stg45, but even that would be stretching it.
  24. Lord_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2002
    star 4
    Now that we are talking about rifles can someone say if this is true:

    It appears that the AK-47 rifles were designed based on the German rifle Mp40.The Russians were so impressed by the performance of this weapon in Stalingrad that,after the war,they studied it,made a few modifications to it(mainly the weight-the MP40 weighted more than 5 kilos when loaded)and invented the AK in 1947.The story about Kalashnikov(the inventor)is pure ****!
  25. General Cargin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 4
    The legend of the AK-47 design history is not one I'm 100% familiar with. It shares most of it's external appearance with the StG44 assault rifle developed by the Germans from 1942 (the original prototype was designated something like MKb-42 or some such). That much I know for certain. I have heard conflicting views of the internal workings, however. One view I know of claims the AK-47 owes it's internal design to the Tokarev SVT family of semi-automatic rifles, while others say Kalashnikov based it on the PPSh -41 system. Another view I know of claims the entire design is ripped 100% from captured examples of MKb-42s that were captured when the Wehrmacht issued a large quantity for field testing. Perhaps Mr44 can shed a little light? He seems to know more than enough on firerms history. ;)