????? The Welfare Discussion Thread????

This is the thread where the pros and cons of Welfare, Medicare, and Medicaid will be discussed.

So, go ahead!

 

I support some welfare in society. A safety net needs to exist to catch people who lose their jobs, so they're not destitute whilst searching for work.

Welfare is an integral part of classical liberalism. (From now on, when I say liberalism, I'm not paying deference to the Americanised term, but the classical ideology of JS Mill). Liberalism didn't initally advocate welfare, until original liberal James Mill's son, John Stuart, saw the rise of socialism. Arguing that socialism would certainly undermine liberty, and resisting Marx's requests to join the cause, Mill created his own take on liberalism in "On Liberty", which remains a relevant text today. What he argued was that in order to undermine socialist influence and to humanely prevent misfortune driving people to poverty, welfare should exist as a safety net to prop people up whilst they look for work.

I am utterly opposed to long-term welfare recipients who refuse to work.

I also support state-funded medicine as a basic, but think that private medicine should exist for those with discerning tastes who don't want to wait 8 hours for medicial help and months for surgery. That is, I support both existing. And for the record, I have private health care.

E_S

 

Here is my take on it:

I worked incredibally hard to get an education (in music), and I now have twenty-three piano students. I work hard to make sure they have the proper equipment and books, and I stay current on new things coming out, and I get paid for it. But then, the government takes twenty something percent out of my paycheck. Of course, this goes to several different things that are useful, like defense and transportation; but the major expenditure of the federal government in the States is Welfare (in all its forms).

For some reason, I don't think its right to take from one person to give to another, especially when I work hard for myself and I see people across the street doing nothing all day, and living off other people's hard earned money.

What I've realized is that people, when given the chance, will usually take the easy way out. Why do people never feed a homeless kitten? Because it will keep coming back, wanting more, and it will never stop. That is why I am opposed to Welfare.

 

What I've realized is that people, when given the chance, will usually take the easy way out. Why do people never feed a homeless kitten? Because it will keep coming back, wanting more, and it will never stop.

If that was so, then you would be on welfare instead of trying to scrape by through teaching 23 piano students.

 

You don't know how much I charge!

And I live with my parents, I'm 16 (and I'll be teaching professionally on campus by the time I get out of the house)...

But it still upsets me.

 

Ikrit, what happens when you're out of work, through no fault of your own?

I'm not a good example; I've finished study but I don't work in a related field ATM because mine is a specialised field regulated by annual intakes.

But let's say I work in a company that decides to move it's operations to India to save money. I lose my job. I can get a temp job flipping burgers, but in that time I'm missing opportunities to get a real job in my field.

Welfare is supposed to be an investment, a safety net to catch people as they fall and to hold them until they get back on their feet.

ES

 

Ikrit, what happens when you're out of work, through no fault of your own?

Then I get another job, and don't burden other hard working people because of my incompetency.

We are born without a job, why do we feel it is owed to us in the first place?

 

We don't, and with all due respect, you're not really that familiar with the job market are you?

What are you meant to support yourself with whilst you look for another job? Your severance package? If it's generous enough to do this, you shouldn't have trouble finding another CEO job somewhere.

Again, with all due respect, you can't comment on the job market at 16 years of age, in the same sense I couldn't comment on middle age at 24. You need to live it to understand it, and to know what it's like

Basically, it's not so easy as you make out, to simply "get another job". There needs to be a vacancy somewhere that you are the best qualified person for. And in the days of enterprise bargaining, if it comes down to you or some other guy, whomever works cheaper gets the job.



E_S

 

I've lived it, when my father was without a job for two years. This was when we had not income whatsoever. We relied on charity and my dad and my family doing odd jobs for people. It worked out. Now my dad has a great job, five times better than the one before.

So don't say I can't comment on it, because I have lived it. And it is hard, and I sympathize for people in that predicament. But frankly, I don't see why I am forced to give other people money.

And before you say "YOU RECEIVED CHARITY YOU HYPOCRITICAL BIGOT!" please understand that charity and Welfare are two different things. Charity is giving to someone by choice, and Welfare is being forced to give to someone. That's all.

And without a safety net, people are motivated and inspired to overcome difficulties and challenges. Heck, if my dad went on Welfare, we probably never would have gotten off, because it robs the recipient of independence and individuality. Oi!

 

I'd say no such thing.

You notice I mentioned I was opposed to long-term welfare..?

E_S

 

Well, what can I say. I support social welfare, in part because I believe that helping people in need helps the people as a whole.

 

I think helping them in that way cripples them more than it really helps them.

I see what you're saying, E_S, it is just that when people get on short term welfare, they get used to it, and then it is nearly impossible to get them off. That and it puts a strain on the economy that already is doing its job.

 

I can't believe what I'm reading! IkritMan, you are making generalizations that I find quite offensive. You seem to be saying that all people on welfare are lazy and leeching off hardworking members of society, this is not the case. Yes, there are people who abuse the welfare system but there are also those who need it just to survive. You are 16, you live with your parents, you have a job, I'm assuming you don't have to worry where your next meal is coming from or where you're going to sleep tonight, you have no idea how lucky you are.

Without welfare how does a child from a poor family get an education? Without an education, how do they then get a job? Without a job how do they then in turn put their own children through school?

Education is not the only thing they will miss out on, how about basic health care?

Without some sort of welfare system in place we are creating a terrible cycle that is almost impossible for anyone to get out of.

The Welfare system is not perfect, in my opinion it needs a lot of work but for anyone to suggest that welfare should be destroyed altogether is just heartless.

You said that when your dad lost his job you were given charity, not everyone is lucky.

 

But most people without a job don't stay that way for two years and three months.

Without welfare how does a child from a poor family get an education?

We have a public school system. With a high performance, that child can get a scholarship. You make it seem like it is impossible to get any kind of education if you are poor, which is completely false.

Education is not the only thing they will miss out on, how about basic health care?

People don't need health care (unless they were injured, which is a different case) if they eat right, and most people (including my self) don't, which is their problem.

Without some sort of welfare system in place we are creating a terrible cycle that is almost impossible for anyone to get out of.

Isn't welfare itself creating a terrible cycle? To me, the welfare system created by Democrats was designed to buy votes; otherwise, the welfare system would have been revamped so much by now that people could only be on it for two months at a time.

The Welfare system is not perfect, in my opinion it needs a lot of work but for anyone to suggest that welfare should be destroyed altogether is just heartless.

I only say it should be destroyed, because (at the present) it is only creating more problems and a gigantic strain on the aggregate economy. The welfare system will never be perfect, because the problem of people getting dependent on it will never cease, no matter how many regulations you put on it. People will never be perfect, so how can you expect a system that can be so easily taken advantage of to be perfect?

 

Ah the siren call of libertarianism.

Anyways, there is something entirely disengenuous about saying people deserve a certain standard of living considering that standard is a construct of economy, society and technology and is certainly not natural.

If the entire economy collapsed into a great depression type situation, what is seen as a living wage now would be spectacularly good.

report. Roughly 86 percent of households own cars. Meanwhile, roughly 12 percent of the country is considered below the poverty threshold.

But it would be again wrong to assume that those numbers are absolutes(ie. none of the poor own cars). In reality, most carless homes or as such to cut down on a needless expense, any one living in a big city with a mass transit system can verify that(New York I'm looking at you). Slightly more then seven out of ten of all households defined as poor, actually own cars, a large minority of 3/10ths own more then 1. 45 precent own their house. Almost all have acess to a refrigerator(I'm assuming some are renting their abodes so they may not actually own the fridge) while less then 3% don't have a color TV.

These are all households which make less then $14,500 a year.

In response to this study I've found this...

But a study by the National Low Income Housing Coalition shows that the average American* needs to make roughly $30,000 per year ($15 per hour) in order to pay average rents. That is more than double the $14,000 poverty line for a family of three.

source

http://www.americanprogress.org/site/apps/s/content.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=3746&content_id={1ABFA30F-103F-4EDC-90BF-F583AE9652C0}#4

Can this be seen as anything other then a disingenuous? Pretending that everyone deserves the life style of an Average American?

*emphisis mine

 

90% of what America considers poverty has a color TV. That's. Not. Po-verty!

 

Poverty in America is defined by the standard of living as compared to the middle class as opposed to an objective standard of what is neccesary.

When we have discussions like this, the minimum wage always seems to make an appearance, and yet a statistic I'd think one side or the other would be waving around doesn't.

Namely, how many people are paid the minimum wage? What percent of the workforce only gets 5.15 and hour?

 

People don't need health care?! So I guess the health care system is the next thing you want to get rid of?

And I suppose we shouldn't have the pension either, and what about maternity leave?


You think living off welfare is an easy life, it's not. I don't know what they pay in America, but here in Australia there are people recieving as little as $9000 a year.

 

Crap, $5.15 is your minimum wage! What age is that for?

 

People don't need health care (unless they were injured, which is a different case) if they eat right, and most people (including my self) don't, which is their problem.

I'm sorry but you have no idea what it is like to not have any health care. At this point in time the only health care I have is for if I do get injured. In other words I don't have the full health care that will help me pay for other things such as getting my teeth cleaned and so on. I don't have the kind of money to pay for that stuff.

Health care helps so that people can at lest pay for that stuff. Health care in the US is not cheap.

 

You're making it seem like I'm of the rich class. The salary bracket my dad is in still constitutes us as the lower class. And I don't have healthcare. I haven't been to the doctor, dentist, etc., in four years now. I don't see why people who earn more money than I do should pay for my healthcare.

 

That statement about healthcare not being nessisary unless you are injured is one of the most ingnorant blanket statements I've heard in a long time.

There are threats to your health other than trumatic injury. There are birth defects that require lots of medical attention throughout someone's entire life, there are chronic disorders that must be regularly medicated, there are basic matiance checkups that are essental to spoting long term problems before they become really severe. These are just three of a long list of such medical expenses for things other than trumatic injury such as a broken arm, concusion, ect.

 

Crap, $5.15 is your minimum wage! What age is that for?

Just an aside about minimum wage. The 5.15 is the federal guideline.

Many states set a different minimum wage.

Oregon, for instance, has a $7.05 minimum.

In Illinois, the minimum wage is set to rise to 6.50 in about 9 months.

 

The Welfare system's abuse is a epidemic.

I recently heard of a man who was waiting to receive a disability checks because he actually couldn't work for nearly twenty years.

Then you have people prancing around claiming disability as they play sports or do house repairs.

I say we completely dismantle, then re-organize it. Afterwards institute stricter punsihment for individuals who take advantage of the Welfare system.

We need some type of process for universally for food stamps where they specfically state what you can and can't buy (necessities).

In many instances the process of receiving unemployment and disability is agonizingly slow.

I understand that's already been implemented but we still have single mothers having child after child while they spend their money on cigarettes and junk food.

If we didn't have these major problems I'd be the staunchest supporter of Welfare.

Complete re-structure.

<[-]> Saber