Amph The Wheel Of Time - Now that it has nearly completed its turn? (Book 11 Spoilers)

So, I'm busily reading Knife of Dreams at the moment, noted in its cover sleeve as the penultimate book in the LOOONNG Wheel Of Time series from Robert Jordan.

Looking back I find it hard to believe how long it has been since this series started and how much has happened in it. I've grown from a teenage to a man in his 30s, and the books still draw me in and envelope me in a stunningly realised world that has both frustrated me and inspired me in equal measures.

I was wondering who else out there reads these books and still has a passion for them, despite some less than perfect volumes dotted here and there. I have found that Knife of Dreams has renewed my passion for the entire series, and raised more questions that I hope will be answered in the final book.

For example, who are Osan'gar and Aran'gar, who was Cyndane?

So, feel free to pop in and leave your theories and ideas for these books.

Look forward to chatting with you all.

 

Can we throw out spoilers from the latest book in here or is it forbidden?
If we can, you might want to quickly edit a spoiler warning into the title before we go much further.

 

Knife of Dreams has been out for a few months, no? I'm sure it's moved beyond the spoiler time frame.

I read, unfortunately, the three George RR Martin/ASOFAI books before trying on The End of the World, and simply couldn't get into it. I may try again, because it was OK, but I think Mr Martin ultimately spoiled it for me.

Though I did find the "Run away. Find somewhere safe. Run away!" format tiresome. I would wager you'd all tell me to persist?

E_S

 

I would say to persevere to be honest E_S. I am a fan of both book series, and they are very different, both in their feel and their mythos.

You're right that the first book does very much have a "Run away, hide, run away" feel to it, but it does get better. It has a pretty good, strong climax that has them standing up to the enemy, and get's stronger the further along you go. By book 3 I was hooked to it.

Don't get me wrong, I think it wanders a little bit in books 8 and 9, but 10 and 11 have really brought it back on track and I'm really looking forward to the final book.

 

Jairen, which did you read first? I came off the three Martin books onto WoT #1 and that's, I think, what undid me. Though after reading the last of Hunters Blade Trilogy, I'm probably a little more open to non-Martinian fantasy worlds than I was just after putting "A Storm of Swords" down.

E_S

 

You're right, I did come to Wheel of Time first, I read the first Wheel of Time book when it came out, so I've been following it for nearly 15 years now I think it is.

Martin is a superb writer, though it is interesting to note that a lot of his story, the non-fantastical parts of it, mirror some British history very closely. I will try to get a re-enactment friend of mine, Verity, to drop in and talk about it on the Martin thread.

I think you are right though. Going directly from Martin to Jordan would be very difficult, I think you'd need something inbetween to adjust your mindset. However, I can go from Jordan to Martin without difficulty, which explains why I'm reading Knife of Dreams before I read Feast For Crows.

 

I haven't read Knife Of Dreams yet and quite frankly I'm not in a hurry to after I read the travesty that preceeded it.

As far as Osan'gar and Aran'gar, I think one of them is Rahvin and one of them is Lanfear but not 100% sure which is which.
I remember reading somewhere in the millions of words that terrible man has written about the Dark One having a laugh switching sexes of his Chosen when he reincarnates them. What it means or whether it has any relevance whatsoever, I don't know.

And has it been revealed who killed Asmodean in the bloody broom cupboard yet or is that going to go down in the history of fantasy/sci-fi as the lamest death of a supporting character ever?

 

I'm pretty curious to know . . .

I love this series!!! My friend and I have a 'robert jordan cult' (that's what our friend calls it) and we keep talking about it. I love Gaywin, Egewin, and Mat

I think that Lanfear is actually Cyndane or whatever.

 

I also thought that, and think that it could still be true, especially after reading Knife Of Dreams. She has the same habit as Lanfear for calling Rand "Lew Therin" all the time, but it says in the book that Greandal is sure it's not Lanfear, so I'm confused at that point.

And that's also if Lanfear is actually dead. We all assumed she was, because she went through the doorway with Moiraine, however we now discover that it looks like Moiraine will have survived the fall through the gateway, since Mat, Thom and one other must go to find her through the Tower. If she could survive, then why not Lanfear?

They have a lot to deal with in the final book, which it is interesting to note that RJ himself has said it may be a monster of a book, nearly 2000 pages!! in length. That's absolutely huge for a book. And he seems adamant that he won't let them split it and end the series on the 13th novel instead. Can't imagine trying to hold that book up to read it in hardback form.

I did like how the threads all started to come together in this book, preparing for what should be one heck of a ride to the end.

 

I'm currently reading Book 11 as well, and I was wondering how Jordan was going to tie everything together in the last one. Some of the plot-ends are coming together, but there's still a lot to go. It doesn't surprise me to hear that he's anticipating a monster of a book for number twelve!

The plot point that intrigues me the most is Lews Therin's voice being in Rand's head - where does it come from? Is it really him? Semirhage's (or however you spell her name) words in this regard were very interesting, I thought...

I'm glad to see a WoT thread here. Reading Knife of Dreams has me very intrigued about how everything's going to pan out in the end...

 

I think it really is Lews Therin, to be honest, and I think he is part of one of the many prophecies.

One of them, mentions he shall tie the east to the north, the south to the west, but then in KoD they mention something about the two shall be as one as part of that prophecy.

I don't think it means that, i.e all the armies will come together as one to battle Tarmon Gaidon. Or at least it may have two meanings. What if it means Rand and Lews Therin must become one?

 

I think it's Lews Therin, as well. And I think the thing with Graendal was just to throw us off.

2000 pages--you've got to be kidding!!! I would split it--2000 in paperback is one thing, but hardcover . . . Unless he doesn't like the number 13, or something.

I'm sad the series is ending, and I've decided to reread it. I'm about 100 pages into the 4th book, and making very slow progress.

 

This is a good site for answers to WOT questions. Granted, it's all fan speculation so none of it is garunteed to be true and some of it has now been made obsolete with the publication of KoD, but it's still good.

http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/0_admin/0.01_intro.html

 

Aran'gar is Halima is Balthamel, and Osan'Gar was Dashiva was Aginor. Killed, ironically, by a Black Ajah Aes Sedai, as I recall. Both of those are explicitly stated, though not in so many words. Cyndane is Lanfear. Something that occurred in Ael/Eelfinn land reduced her power dramatically. That's the only reason that is cited by Graendal for her not being Lanfear, and everything else adds up, including her being enslaved to Moridin as punishment. Most particularly, one of her thoughts in Winter's Heart.

If that isn't sufficient evidence, this ought to be:

What's curious to me is the result of the entangling between Moridin and Rand from their crossed balefire beams. Also, how Rand must die to live, that Alivia is going to help him to die, and a few other prophecies/viewings that don't come to mind in all their clarity, at least off the top of my head, but are to the effect of three men coming together and two dying... All of which points to Rand surviving, whatever anyone else may think. Moridin and Lews Therin will die, is my bet.

- Keralys

 

All great points Keralys. The site that was linked just above your post covers these as well and I have found very informative now I've had a chance to read it.

I am very interested to find out from Moiraine (who I am sure is coming back in the final book, at last!) what actually happened to Cyndane/Lanfear to cause her reduction in strength.

I am also interested in the outcome of the Moridin/Lews Therin/Rand grouping. I too believe that Rand will survive to the end, mostly because of the prophecy regarding "the one who is dead yet lives" in combination with "the great battle done but the world not done with battle".

In fact, we know from Rand's own three questions that to survive Tarmon Gaidon he must "die to live".

 

"What's curious to me is the result of the entangling between Moridin and Rand from their crossed balefire beams...."

The site that soloknight linked to (which is pretty good actually) mentions that the source of Rand's dizziness and blurred vision when he seizes the one power is a result of that crossed balefire beam with Moridin. Since the taint has been cleansed, it's not the taint that's messing with him and his difficulty has been happening since that point.

It also mentions that several of the Forsaken can't be reincarnated because their threads were burnt out of the pattern with balefire. Rahvin and Bel'al were both killed with balefire and segments of both of their deaths resemble what happened to Asmodean, which probably explains why none have retuned.

So there's not actually any new Forsaken to speak of, just the old ones in new form.
That's a bit clever

And could Lanfear/Cyndane be weaker now because the Ael/Eelfinn took away her strength with the power and transferred it to Moiraine?

 

WoT ate excellent series.

 

That's a fascinating possibility, to say the least, and one that I thought of a few years ago, when book 9 had just come out and I was thinking back through all those things. Especially because, much as I had already suspected Moiraine not to be dead, Min's viewing in Winter's Heart rather blatantly confirmed it. And when realizing that Cyndane's strength had been reduced, I started thinking about the Aelfinn and Eelfinn, I started wondering about the "gifts" that are given...

Just out of curiosity, what are all you guesses on the killer of Asmodean? I'll hold mine until I've heard yours.

As for the 12-book series, I actually find it odd. To me, it would make perfect sense - it would, in some ways, be about as right as it could be - for the series to be 13 books long. It fits so well with the continually developed theme throughout the novels. And I'm not looking forward to the long wait between now and the time that Book 12, whatever it will be called, will be published, particularly as long as Jordan says it's going to be.

- Keralys

 

I recently wrapped up Lord of Chaos and wasnt all that crazy about it. Personally I dont think that the books have been anything special since The Shadow Rising. There seem to be too many meandering plotlines and the female characters are easily among the worst Ive ever read in any genre. Ill probably skip the rest of the series and just jump right to the last book when it comes out in paperback.

 

But you'll miss out on that sense of acheivement I get everytime I finish a Wheel Of Time after reading the phrases "she sniffed" and "horses whickered" and "weighed and measured" countless times!

Seriously, his editor needs a kick in the arse for the number of times those phrases are allowed to be repeated in each book!

 

Editor?

He has an editor? Since when?

I certainly haven't noticed any real editing in any of his books.

Kimball Kinnison

 

Why do people keep buying/reading if they've hated something so long?

 

Because most of them don't really hate it, Excellence. They gripe about one part or another, but as a whole they love the series, they love the ideas, and above all, they love the characters (yes, even the ones they hate). Jordan makes you want to keep coming back. Not sure how. He's certainly had some lower points. I loved everything through book 5, fel that all but part of 6 was weak (though the part that wasn't, wasn't), thought 7 and 8 were largely dull, rather enjoyed 9 as it began to pick up and see important things happening again, saw 10 as the necessary moving of all the pieces into position for the final sequence, and absolutely loved 11 again. And overall, his highs have been higher than his lows have been low.

- Keralys

 

I think you've got it about dead on for me there Keralys.

Despite some problems in places, I do love these books and the characters in them. He's done more than enough throughout them that I am happy to follow them right to the end.

 

I've heard a load of complaints from midseries onward, ranging from his generic and indistinctive women and cloned characters with new names, to the drivel nature saturating the latter few books.

But I have a more serious question. More than a dozen books of hype and decade of waiting, readers are thinking there's going to be this awesome showdown with this Dark One. What sort of titanic battle are people expecting? And how Huttdrooling do they think it can be? Expectations are high, but reality will bite last of all. It's just a battle, it may be rewarding or not, long or short, but that's all it is, no different to any other villainous climax.

And out of feline curiosity, what is known after all this time about this Dark One, his background and such?