BTS The Whills

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by bstnsx704, Mar 25, 2013.

  1. bstnsx704 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2013
    star 3
    I used the search bar, but all of the threads on this topic are either really old or merely speculation in the Episode VII section. If there is a better place for this discussion to be held please move or merge the thread as needed.

    Anyways, as a fan who sees the films the be-all, end-all of Star Wars, I have barely ever paid attention at all to the Whills. I know they were a concept in Lucas' original scripts (R2-D2 is telling them the story or something like that...), and maybe they had a role in the EU, but I don't read any of the books. Recently, after reading an excerpt of the Revenge of the SIth script in which Qui-Gon Jinn mentioned learning his new ability from the Shaman of the Whills, they have been on my mind a lot more.

    What do you guys think the Whills are, exactly? And what is there connection to the Force? Personally, I have a very hard time imagining them as an alien species akin to what is commonly presented in the Star Wars saga...to me (assuming they even exist in the continuity of the films beyond adandoned concepts in scripts) they would have to be much more in line with the 'aliens' in 2001 A Space Odyssey...they have no tangible body or language and communicate with other life forms in ways that should be incomprehensible under any normal circumstances. Perhaps they master the Force in ways that the Jedi and Sith have barely scratched the surface of, and the Shaman of the Whills passed but a mere fraction of their knowledge on to Qui-Gon after his death.
  2. Grigsy Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2013
    According to the Star Wars wiki: The Journal of the Whills was a legendary record of events in the galaxy. Ostensibly, the Journal was maintained by the Ancient Order of the Whills, a mysterious group of beings.
    During the Galactic Civil War, some individuals wished their efforts be recorded in the Journal of the Whills, indicating it was an on-going recording of the history, widely known as a tradition to the inhabitants of the Galaxy. The recording of their names and efforts in the Journal signaled their importance to the history, hence honorary.
    The events surrounding the life of several members of the Skywalker family were recorded in the Journal by a Keeper of the Whills, after an interview with the Astromech droid R2-D2 one hundred years after the Battle of Endor.
    SO in my interpreatation, it is the Story of Starwars. Remember it was a long time ago... in a galaxy far far away.... far away from what? from who? us the audience? Perhaps it is those who are reading the school of the Whills
  3. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    Who exactly are the Whills mentioned either in the early conception of the SW Saga ("Journal of the Whills" and the early ANH drafts), or during the PT and that cut scene from ROTS remains a mystery indeed. It's basically a storytelling and/or metaphysical concept designed by Lucas.

    The guardians and keepers of the Galaxy events of the first conception seem to have evolved like an aspect of the Force itself (The Will of the Force) since SW/ANH was released, and thereafter during the OT, completely unmentioned and forgotten in the movies storywise and plotwise.

    It was surprisingly brought back at the end of the PT in that cut scene, kind of merging the 2 concepts : still related to the Force and the way to attain eternity and immortality, but being some kind of wiser ancient beings who apparently discovered and mastered such ability. Who or what exectly is a "Shaman of the Whills" is left open to speculation...Mortals, semi-gods, some kind of collective (Whills) ? I have the slight feeling that Shaman means they are mortals, but surely more experts in the ways of the Force than the Jedi, as you said.

    Anyway all this was deleted from he movie, and it appears to be non canonical and irrelevant in the Saga itself. So both conceptions can still co-exist.

    I personally prefer to see them like in the first conception (guardians and keepers of the galactical records). Think it was a great and fascinating way from Lucas to insert the events in a universal context. I like that idea more.
    Last edited by Ord-Mantell70, Mar 25, 2013
  4. darklordoftech Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    I don't think the Qui-Gon's dialogue is decanonized just because it was cut. After all, it's clear in the finished movie that he did somehow learn about force-ghosting.
  5. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    I can understand that. Depends on what you personally consider as canon actually. To me it's only the movies and the movies' novelization.

    But this "Shaman of the Whills" notion is not even in ROTS novel, at least in the French version I've read...So it seems to indicate that the concept was finally discarded.

    Is it mentioned in the original one (English) ?
    Last edited by Ord-Mantell70, Mar 25, 2013
  6. darklordoftech Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    yes
    Last edited by darklordoftech, Mar 25, 2013
  7. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    Alright.

    There it can be considered canon. Although to me it's a real minor point, that plays almost no role in the plot or the events. We simply learn a bit more on who taught Qui Gon the way to merge with the Force.

    How the hell is it not on the French version...:eek:
    Last edited by Ord-Mantell70, Mar 25, 2013
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  8. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 5
    It does hint at beings more powerful (and presumably more wise) than the Jedi, however. Although virtually nothing's known about them, and may never be, it seems to further emphasise the fallibility of the Jedi, as well as providing some hope for the future.
  9. darklordoftech Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    I personally believe that Father from Mortis and "Shaman of the Whills" are one and the same.
  10. bstnsx704 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2013
    star 3
    Canon or not (I really hate the word 'canon', but that's just me), it is a very interesting topic to think about. Should we learn in a future film that the Whills are the omnipresent beings with a very vast knowledge of the Force that I referred to in my original post, they could potentially add an entirely new, multifaceted layer to the mystical elements of Star Wars. I've said it numerous times, but I honestly believe that (while the general public may not be as accepting of this leap forward) going a bit 'out there' and delving some of the more fantastic properties of the Force would be the most logical step forward in the sequel films. Star Wars meets 2001: A Space Odyssey's stargate sequence in a Jedi's vision of the Netherworld, anyone?

    Perhaps the Prophecy of the Chosen one has a link of some sort to these beings. And the midi-cholorians...could they somehow be empirical relatives or descendants or creations of the Whills? Despite popular belief the midi-chlorians do not destroy the nature of the Force and they certainly do not undermine what was previously established in the original films; if anything, they enhance and expand upon the mythology of the original movies. Like the Jedi, the Sith, and perhaps even the Whills, the midi-chlorians are a group of beings that are attracted to the Force and utilize it for their own distinctive purposes while remaining in symbiosis with their hosts.

    Interesting. Very interesting.
    Last edited by bstnsx704, Mar 25, 2013
  11. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 7
    Maybe the Whills were the original force people? Like before it was split into light and dark? The progenitors of the whole thing, clouded in myth and legend. It would be like the SW universes own mythology. The mythology within the SW mythology.

    I once thought maybe Lucas would end the whole SW story with bookends showing who these beings were and pulling back to reveal them telling this SW story to someone.
    Last edited by ShaneP, Mar 25, 2013
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  12. obi-rob-kenobi4 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2007
    star 4
    Basically bstnsx704 is spot on for the most part. =D=

    I also think this is something they are going to explore with the ST. The original idea for the "Ending" of SW was always supposed to be R2-D2 in the distant future telling the story to the Whills to then be passed down through the ages so I wouldn't be surprised at all if they somehow did this at the very end of Episode 9.
    bstnsx704 likes this.
  13. Placeholder Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    The Whills were originally just a plot devise, as R2 reveals the story of the Skywalkers to the Whills, it is also being revealed to us the viewers. Since that direction was dropped, I feel like it's best to not explore the Whills any further. There is no need to introduce them into the next trilogy, since there is absolutely no basis in the prior saga for that introduction.

    It would be there just for the sake of being there.
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  14. bstnsx704 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2013
    star 3
    But the basis is there, it just hasn't been referenced by name within the continuity of the films. To relate these omnipresent beings and their philosophies and knowledge to the recent fulfillment of the Prophecy and the occurrence of Force Ghosts (which, in and of themselves, have used the Force to transcend death [as opposed to someone like Plagueis who used the Force to cheat death]) seems like a natural progression to me.
  15. Placeholder Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    It hasn't been referenced at all in the films, not even the Qui-Gon learning how to Ghost thing.

    None of those things have been linked to the Whills in any way shape or form within the movies. You get that from outside sources. Interviews, the EU, things like that. A general movie audience won't know, and won't care, about any of it.

    The decision was made a very long time ago to drop the Whills angle from the first movies. And that decision should stand, and most likely will, as far as the big budget movies are concerned.
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  16. obi-rob-kenobi4 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2007
    star 4
    Actually there is ample evidence of various connected and very consistent easter eggs between Lucas and Spealbergs films.

    1.) The two UFOs streaking across the sky in jaws connected to...
    2.) The UFOs from close encounters which hide by being shrouded in storm clouds connected to...
    3.) The storm clouds above indy when they dig up the ark and when the ark is opened at the end connected to...
    4.) ET which was seen in TPM in the senate AND referenced in the film ET itself as well as poltergeist

    And finally...

    The hieroglyphs of R2-D2 and C-3P0 behind idy when he and sala lift the ark up in the snake tomb as well as MORE hieroglyphs R2 an 3P0 in Krystal Skull in the saucer of the "inter dimensional beings".

    It is a popular theory that its all kind of 'connected" in the Lucas/Spealberg "universe" and thats not even all the easter eggs. There are others like the little people from willow basically re-appearing in TCW tv show and so on.

    I believe that the alien/inter dimensional beings seen at the end of Krystal skull either are, used to be or know the whills somehow and that is why we see the hieroglyphs of R2-D2 and C-3p0 spealbergs depictions of earth.

    [face_coffee]
    Last edited by obi-rob-kenobi4, Mar 26, 2013
  17. Placeholder Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    R2 is in the latest Star Trek movie too, are we going to suggest that the Whills are connected to that too? Easter eggs are meant to be fun, nothing more.
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  18. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    Indeed.

    That's why I mentioned above that storywise speaking, to me it's almost of no interest.

    Maybe Lucas simply wanted to insert a reference to the Whills somewhere in the movies, knowing that many fans were intrigued and interested by this early concept, or because he remained somewhat attached to this word, and chose to connect it to the secret of merging with the Force in ROTS.

    Anyway the scene was eventually cut, showing it was likely thought to be really unnecessary, as it was artificially introduced way too late in the series, and didn't explain anything in the end.
    Last edited by Ord-Mantell70, Mar 26, 2013
  19. darklordoftech Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    I wonder if there is a "Whill of The Force"
  20. Placeholder Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    [face_laugh] [face_laugh] [face_laugh] [face_laugh]
  21. StarWarsVerses Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2013
    star 1
    Probably not far off the origin of the term.

    Not to mention 'Triumph of the Whill'.
  22. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 7
    Well, JJ is directing both isn't he?! :eek:




    :p
    Last edited by ShaneP, Mar 26, 2013
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  23. Jarren_Lee-Saber Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2008
    star 4
    I did not know that! But I've been waiting for a Wars/Trek connection for years.

    maybe we'll get one from Abrams! ooohhh that gives me sexy shivers!!
  24. Placeholder Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4

    I should be more clear. I mean the last one that was released a few years ago, not the sequel coming out in the Summer.

    In the scene when the Enterprise comes out of warp over Vulcan into the debris field left by the Narada's destruction of the Federation fleet, R2 is in the debris field. He floats by in the viewscreen. It's hard to notice, as you would expect an Easter Egg like that to be, but it's there. Google for it. you'll find it.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 26, 2013
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  25. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 5
    Well... I did once have a theory that the very scenes that were cut from ROTS might have been some sort of remnant from the old vision of the Saga, something that could have tied into Episodes VII-IX, and with the ST abandoned, completely unnecessary.
    With the ST now back on, I certainly wouldn't object to the concept of the Whills being resurrected - if they were once a part of it.

    I'm not married to the theory, though, it was really just speculation. I figured that with the ST originally supposed to follow closely after the PT, there would probably have to be some sort of connection or hook between the two for audiences, rather than just picking things up after ROTJ, which would have been three episodes old.
    Mention was also made by both GL & Rick McCallum during the time the PT was being made that Obi-Wan's line - "If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" - would be explored & explained, so I don't think the cut scenes in ROTS were a last-minute addition, rather something that was whittled down & all but abandoned.
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Mar 27, 2013
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