BTS The Whills

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by bstnsx704, Mar 25, 2013.

  1. Placeholder Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    He has a muscly son out there somewhere :D
  2. Yunners Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2006
    star 2
    Are you sure he isn't in fact a she? :)
  3. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    Since the Saga is what R2 is telling the Whills. could R2's emotions be distorting events?
  4. darthfettus2015 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 3
    i think the whills maybe us....or whoever the audience is. If you watch carefully R2 is present at a lot of the most vital story points, i like to think of the whole saga comming from his projector, i always thought as a child R2 escaped a destroyed galaxy and reported the story as a warning to another galaxy
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  5. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    perhaps so. Then again, don't be surprised if Episode IX ends with GL finding the Journal of the Whills.
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  6. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    I wonder if the Whills have enemies called the Whon'ts.
    Last edited by darklordoftech, Jun 24, 2013
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  7. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 5
    Apologies for something that might be considered necroposting, as well as shamelessly quoting one of my old posts, but I figured it'd be more appropriate for this forum given the rampant speculation everywhere regarding these shots in the new trailer for Episode VIII: The Last Jedi:
    Show Spoiler

    [IMG]

    [IMG]

    And just for the record:

    [IMG]

    A religious sect called 'The Guardians of the Whills' has already came up in Rogue One, Qui-Gon's cut dialogue from ROTS points to such 'Whills' being far more powerful and intelligent than the Jedi, now we hear Luke Skywalker himself saying that it's time that the Jedi must end - so whaddya all think? Will this legendary journal finally make an appearance - perhaps before being scanned and then shredded by R2-D2? Might Qui-Gon Jinn be making an appearance in Ep IX?
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Apr 16, 2017
  8. bstnsx704 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2013
    star 3
    Thanks for the post, actually forgot I made this thread. Definitely thinking along the same line as you -- the Whills weren't mentioned for nothing in Rogue One, and I'm right with you in thinking that we may finally be seeing that aspect of the mythology of the Force creeping into the forefront in the films (and, at the same time, setting up a lot of this ancient history to be further explored in an Old Republic trilogy of films once this trilogy wraps).
    Ord-Mantell70 and darklordoftech like this.
  9. Sluice Friggins Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2015
    star 2
    Plus the poem quoted directly from the Journal of the Whills that opens TFA novelization. When I first read it, I thought, "oh, what a nice homage to George" but now, I think, in the words of Luke Skywalker - "it's so much bigger." And the thought of those ancient texts being shredded makes me wince. As for Qui-Gon, if I had to guess, they'll possibly save him for a Kenobi movie. I don't believe we've seen how old Ben learns to Force Ghost.
    Ord-Mantell70 likes this.
  10. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 5
    What I'm curious about is the extent to which these 'Whills' might relate to whatever GL may have had in mind for the SW Saga - largely around the time of ROTS, when he seemed to have resurrected the idea, despite eventually rejecting their inclusion entirely (I'm pretty convinced that they weren't a part of his thinking during the OT, past the couple of drafts in which they were mentioned in the prologue - he claimed early on that their concept simply became part of the Force).
    Should they become a part of the ongoing story, will these beings be new creations, or will there be a connection to something that was developed before George Lucas sold SW to Disney, if such an idea was ever taken beyond the mere name?

    TFA resurrected a few long-dead, often regarded as dubious, ideas that were considered for ROTJ as early as 1979, and which Gary Kurtz brought up now and then over the years, long before (or, rather, after!) the trilogy of Eps VII-IX was seriously considered - Han dying in a raid on an Imperial base, Leia leading a Rebellion in tatters, and Luke wandering off on his own, like a lone samurai, or Clint Eastwood in a spaghetti western.
    All these elements came to pass, albeit one episode later, and it surely isn't any coincidence that Lawrence Kasdan, co-writer of ESB - at the very time such ideas for 'the third film', i.e. ROTJ, were being tossed about - was also one of the screenwriters of The Force Awakens.

    Episode VIII: The Last Jedi, however, is another matter. At a quick online glance, the only credited writer of this work-in-progress is Rian Johnson, also the director. He has a few worthy credits, but hardly the sort of body of work that would suggest that LFL and Disney would completely entrust him with the Skywalker legacy.
    So...
    What's this next movie going to be based upon, and who's really supplying the source material? And to get back to the topic at hand - just who's deciding how (and if) the mysterious Whills fit in? Will they be just another cheap little nod in-name-only to old concepts, or perhaps a tantalising glimpse at what may have come to pass if GL had charged on with the SW Saga through the 1980s and 1990s non-stop?
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Apr 17, 2017
  11. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    Yes, it's definitely in the realm of possibilities that the Whills and the legendary Journal of the Whills will be dealt with in the next episodes.

    But, I don't know...Somehow I think they would already have introduced the concept in the first ST movie (TFA). Just like it happened in TPM for the PT (the Sith, the rule of two, the prophecy of the Chosen One).

    Didn't know it was mentioned in Rogue One (didn't see it) and TFA novelization. But indeed it might just be a simple nod to old fans...

    PS : Just love that Prologue from ANH novel...Thanks to Darth_Nub
    Last edited by Ord-Mantell70, Apr 18, 2017
  12. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 5
    I wasn't actually aware that the TFA novelisation opened with a quote/poem from the JOtW, but here it is:
    "First comes the day
    Then comes the night.
    After the darkness
    Shines through the light.
    The difference, they say,
    Is only made right
    By the resolving of gray
    Through refined Jedi sight."
    ―Journal of the Whills, 7:477
    IMHO, this smacks of blatant fan-service, not anything relating to stories yet to come -
    Show Spoiler
    and if new stories reveal that the way of the Jedi has become redundant and must end, as Luke says in the trailer (with the path of the Whills perhaps being shown to be the true path to enlightenment/wisdom/etc), then its obvious reverence for the wisdom and insight of the Jedi is somewhat contradictory.

    I'd say Alan Dean Foster just came up with it as a little flourish, and a nod to the last SW novelisation he wrote - way back in 1976.

    The film of Rogue One does introduce an order called 'The Guardians of the Whills', but from a glance at the Wook, it almost seems that it's confined to the location featured in Rogue One (yet another old element from early drafts appears, but it's one that's been used ad nauseam in the EU and TCW):


    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Guardians_of_the_Whills

    OK, maybe just some more fan-service, with the legendary name being given to an organisation that mightn't have any further relevance (much as the EU once used the 'Son of Suns' title and prophecy for a relatively insignificant character).
    Show Spoiler
    However, that little shelf of books appearing in the very first trailer for Episode VIII - in a film series in which actual books have never appeared (I think?) - just screams 'Journal of the Whills', and I'd imagine that any writers associated with the films would be itching to include the legendary tome.
    With GL well and truly out of the picture - and having disowned the Whills, anyway, to a certain extent - might Lawrence Kasdan, or even Gary Kurtz, have been able to provide the new filmmakers with some old backstory?
  13. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    Show Spoiler
    I didn't even notice it was a shelf of old books. Just thought it was an entrance to some place. Didn't realise that hand was touching a book either !

    Don't remember seing any books onscreen in the previous films indeed. Even in backgrounds.

    Now I understand all those speculations much better...
    Last edited by Ord-Mantell70, Apr 20, 2017
  14. Nibelung Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2017
    star 1
    Here's a thought: the Legends EU repeatedly makes the point that Palpatine was very much afraid of some threat from outside the galaxy, some alien race that he believed would end civilization in the GFFA as we know it.

    This seems to me to have been the original departing point for the idea of a Sequel Trilogy (as suggested by George Lucas in Alan Arnold's Once Upon A Galaxy, and distinct from the idea of an ST that follows on directly from ROTJ.) In the same interview Lucas says the third film in the OT would end with Vader's death -- but the Emperor would apparently escape, to return in a new trilogy set 20 years or so in the future.

    The Yuuzhan Vong and other "alien invaders from beyond" plotlines in the EU appear to have been dim reflections of this idea, as do the remote, far-flung Chiss from Grand Admiral Thrawn's backstory.

    What if the plot of the ST as such was that, with Palpatine gone for 20 years, the New Republic has begun to establish itself... when the extra-galactic aliens whom the Emperor so greatly feared finally invade, like the Boskonians of the Second Galaxy in Doc Smith's Lensman books?

    This is a warlike species (perhaps blue-skinned, red-eyed, with armor made of sharpened animal bones) who don't sense and aren't subject to the Force, like ysalamiri, maybe because their blood lacks the proper Force-carrying bacteria, or maybe because they evolved Force-insensitivity as a protective measure in the prehistory of their home planet ages ago. Whatever the reasons, these warriors cannot be defeated by Jedi power, and the New Republic fears its own destruction.

    Amid this threat a charismatic young leader arises, one who says all the right things and commands popular support in the Republic... the Emperor in a new guise, reborn with a different face. Seeking power once again, to fight the one thing he fears most: people whom he cannot control.

    And what is the name of this species the Emperor so fears? Might it, perhaps, be the Whills?

    I wonder.

    But in any case, for their own reasons, the invaders are just as frightened of the Republic as the Republic is of them. And fear cannot stand in the face of love.

    This concludes my presentation. Thank you for your attention. :p
    Last edited by Nibelung, May 31, 2017
  15. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    The Whills weren't something to be feared. They were basically beings that existed on almost another plain of existence.

    "Originally, I was trying to have the story be told by somebody else; there was somebody watching this whole story and recording it, somebody probably wiser than the mortal players in the actual events. I eventually dropped this idea, and the concepts behind the Whills turned into the Force. But the Whills became part of this massive amount of notes, quotes, background information that I used for the scripts; the stories were actually taken from the ‘Journal of the Whills’."

    --George Lucas, "Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays", page 6.
    Nibelung likes this.
  16. Nibelung Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2017
    star 1
    I agree!