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PT The Will Of The Force

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by NotSoScruffyLooking, Jun 23, 2014.

  1. skygawker

    skygawker Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 25, 2014

    Which is why I wouldn't frame it as a "religious" aspect, even though I think that the theme of the will of the Force is there. It can be secular but still supernatural, or else a natural phenomenon that just happens to be beyond our understanding. I tend to think of the Force as something that guides but cannot control - it can help influence circumstances/luck, but people still have free will and aren't "forced" to do anything.
     
  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Exactly. That's the point.
     
  3. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    There's a "God" in Tolkien's Middle-earth legendarium, but I still enjoy those works as fiction.
     
  4. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    HAN: "Then I'll see you in hell!"

    There seems to be a hell in the afterlife sense.
     
  5. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    How does a fictional work with spiritual themes exclude atheists and agnostics? It's fiction.
     
  6. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    How many times are we supposed to accept that X happened because of "the will of the Force," and if we say that that makes no sense whatever, or is not a real explanation, we are just "wrong"?

    I can suspend disbelief long enough to buy sound in space, but not people behaving a certain way/events happening because of "the will of the Force."
     
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  7. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    The problem is that some of the posters here have different ideas of what is and isn't the will of the Force. So you have conflicting answers. Someone will say that it was the will of the Force that Anakin kills the Jedi, which is just not true. It was his decision to do that, because he chose to not kill Palpatine which was his destiny. On the other hand, the meeting between Qui-gon and Anakin was not mere chance. That he would find the boy who fits the criteria of the Chosen One, just as the Sith have returned, is proof enough for Qui-gon to believe that it was fate that they would meet.
     
  8. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    But that's your choice. The work itself doesn't exclude anyone.
     
  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    It is my choice, but all the efforts to tell me that I'm "wrong" to not accept "the will of the Force" as a plot explanation would indicate that I have no choice.
     
  10. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014
    I don't really understand how "the will of the force" really works,

    does it favour the good? the bad?

    does it get sad when people use force lightning?

    does it smile when it sees Yoda training Luke?

    my own personal opinion is that the PT complicated something that didn't need to be complicated.

    The OT spelt it out just fine "it's an energy field created by all living things, some use it for good, others for bad"

    seems pretty simple and fine to me.
     
  11. Seagoat

    Seagoat Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 25, 2013
    I think the general idea is that its will is just to do whatever it takes to bring itself to balance and then keep it that way. That's what a good deal of EU supports
     
  12. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014
    so it's not really a sentient thing then?

    it's only thing is to want to survive a certain way? like an organism of sorts?
     
  13. Seagoat

    Seagoat Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 25, 2013
    I imagine it sort of like a deity, except with a very basic, primal instinct. Imagine a prehistoric early humanoid, except with divine powers of sorts.

    I'm not saying that that's the way it is; just that that is my interpretation
     
  14. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    All of the force concepts introduced in the PT were all unnecessary. Midichlorians/Will of the Force. Balance of the Force. The Chosen One prophecy.
     
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  15. Seagoat

    Seagoat Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 25, 2013
    By this logic, the Force is unnecessary in general. You could tell the same story with the same morals/lessons/themes without the Force

    Yes, it acts as an example of the themes at times, yet it is still represented several other ways
     
  16. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Not to speak for Shane but I think the idea is that the Force as represented in the OT works well without midichlorians, a "will", balance or a prophecy.
     
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  17. Seagoat

    Seagoat Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 25, 2013
    Then that is your truth
     
  18. _Sublime_Skywalker_

    _Sublime_Skywalker_ Jedi Master star 4

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    May 8, 2004
    He means that all the events that lead him to Tatooine, to Watto's shop etc. He just meant, the force was ready to reveal the chosen one to Qui Gon/ Obi Wan and thus, all events from the first minute of TPM all perfectly lined up to bring the Jedi to Anakin.
     
  19. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    In the notes for Episode I that Lucas reads aloud in doc on the Complete Saga blu-ray, he says that the Force controls and guides your destiny while also allowing you free will. Obi Wan also admitted that the force controls your actions, partially, but also obeys your commands.

    It's not too dissimilar to existing earth religions and faiths so it's no wonder that George made it aspect of the force, even if it merely reflects the subjectivisation of our responsibilities and of fate etc.
     
  20. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011

    I believe the point Lucas is making with all this is that both things can be true: Everyone has a destiny, but everyone also has the freedom to decide what to do with that destiny. Now, what exactly does that mean, in practical terms? Well, I think it's up to the viewer to decide. It's a paradox that humanity has grappled with since practically the dawn of society. I don't think Lucas was trying to completely resolve the paradox, but merely comment upon it, and throw his own two cents into the mix.
     
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  21. BadCane

    BadCane Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2015
    Maybe, just like we are discussing what the will of the force is here, Jedi and other force users In-universe may have had disagreeing opinions too about the so called will of the force. Some had a more zealot-like interpretation like Qui-Gon and others had a "The Force is a energy field that can be tapped in for good or bad" interpretation, in league with the free will aspect.

    Please, correct me if I'm wrong. With movie quotes, preferably.
     
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  22. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Even without them going too much into it in the movies, I believe you can perceive the rift between the Jedi order and Dooku, for example, being defined by the Count coming to believe that one should use your intellect to show you the correct path, in spite of what seems to be the will of the force, or not the will of the force. Yoda and the council's faith leads them to tolerate and endure the growing corruption in the senate because they sense it is not the will of the force for them to intervene or interfere. A pragmatic solution that defies this blind faith is only considered far too late in the day for the council and for the republic to be saved.
     
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  23. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011

    I would hardly characterize Qui-Gon as a "zealot." It also makes no sense for you to ascribe the interpretation in quotation marks to other Jedi in opposition to Qui-Gon, since that is essentially just a description of the Living Force, which Qui-Gon is an explicit and vocal adherent of.
     
  24. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Dooku, Palpatine, Obi-wan and Vader all speak of the Force being with them. Not just in "May the Force be with you", but in terms of the Force is on their side or will be with them always.

    DOOKU: "The Force is with us, my Lord."

    VADER: "The Force is with you, young Skywalker."

    OBI-WAN: "The Force will be with you, always.

    So there is a belief in the greater aspect of the Force, which extends beyond just Qui-gon. When Qui-gon talks about the the Living Force, he is referring to what Yoda said to Luke about what the Force was, when Luke expressed despair about the sinking X-Wing. He speaks of it regarding Obi-wan's inability to understand and be more communal with people. Hence his crack about Anakin being a pathetic life form. He still had much to learn about people and we see this in AOTC, when he has shifted from where he was as a Padawan to where he is as a Knight. He's friends with Dex, who would be a pathetic life form in any other instance. He has more tolerance for Jar Jar. He's evolving as a person.
     
  25. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011

    Furthermore, in ROTS he congratulates Artoo during the space battle and then gets all sheepish in the hangar when Anakin scolds him for being about to make a droid joke. He's learning to value droids (the lowest "life form" on the totem pole in Star Wars) as people, too.