Oceania The Woomera Detention Centre crisis. Your opinion?

Personally I am disgusted with it all.

These people ARE NOT Illegal Immigrants. An Illegal Immigrant is someone who has overstayed their visa. Australia has over 3,000 Illegal Immigrants. 96% of them are British Backpackers.

You can only be inside a country illegally is if your Visa has expired and that you have overstayed the limit. These people are not Illegal immigrants. This is the only way they can get to a country such as Australia because we have no system set up in Afghanistan and IRAQ where people could go and allgy for refugee status in Australia. This is why they go down on the boats. This is basicly a last stand for them. They didn't travel half-way around the world just so they can be put in a situation similar to the one they just left.

At the moment I am disgusted with the Australian Government. Not only goes it reflect badly on Australia as a whole, but it makes us seem like a barberous, rasist people. These are human beings we are talking about, not animals. The people in those camps carry no infectious diseases nor do they have any criminal dealings. These are families trying to escape a war-torn situation. I truly feel sorry for them. And I am disgusted with my government for treating Human Beings like animals.

 

The crisis in their nation is over, UN peace keeping troops are in place for the country's defense while the transitional government is building itself up to take full charge and build a new nation.
I do believe it is safe for them to go home now.

 

Here's something I'd like to know, if these refugees are so unfortunate that they must save and sell all their posessions over years (up to 5 years I've heard), then why don't they apply legally for residency?

It's a process that takes 12 - 24 months and doesn't require a lot of money on their part and is an obvious sign that they haven't looked into their options from their end. They would rather spend their life savings on shonky boats and pirates who will cram them onto the nearest ship to Australia.

I know that they've had it bad. And it's horrible to think they've been locked up. But there has been really choosy journalism on the centres themselves. Not many people realise that adult men are alowed to work during the days outside the centre. They have air conditioners, televisions, VCRs, phones, mobile phones, computers and Internet access (which is illegal in most muslim nations).

The majority of them may very well be fine human beings, but it's impossible to say 100% of them are fine to stay here, like you say. Thank god the security gaurd of Saddam Hussien was found and sent back to Iraq. I wonder what he could have been doing here in this day and age...

They just don't want to live in the centres. Unfortunatly, if you sneak into the country, you're going to have to wait until we check out your past to make sure you're alright.

 

Larko, they are illegal immigrants. There are rules and procedures on entering Australia the proper and legal way. These people you speak of are doing the wrong way, the way which is not allowed by Austrlaian law.

Another thing, there is a very good reason Australia is the last country/continent on the planet to not have certain illnesses floating around which constitute a public health hazard. Rabies, tuberculosis, dysentry, malaria, etc are all diseases that are virtually uncontrolled in many parts of the world, and all of those are highly contagious. How healthy are those who try migrate illegally? Do you really want to gamble with your health?

I have absolutely no doubt there are genuine refugees who would not be alive today if they didn't make the effort to come, but seeing as they chose this method, they can wait their turn and be processed just like everyone else.

 

The Australian governments stance on immigration is gonna come back and bite them on the ass bigtime sometime in the (near)future.

We sit here in Australia in total luxury with an enormous land mass and great livingh conditions whilst our closest neighbouring countries are living in awful conditions, earning awful wages working for the like of "The Gap" and f'ing crud like that. It's only a matter of time before something bad happens, and then when it does everyone will be saying why? It's quite obvious why really.

anyway this was from a while ago

http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=3456338&start=3466596

If you fancy a really good read, pick up "no Logo" by Naomi Klein. Very good.

"You might not see things yet on the surface, but underground, it's allready on fire" - Y.B Mangunwijaya, Indonesian Journo.

They are comming........................

 

if these people can get to another country in order to get on a boat here, why cant they apply for asylum there?

last i heard, beggars cant be choosers, but this is what these people are trying to do. and trying to force us to let them do it.

not the sort of people i want in my country.

 

It's a process that takes 12 - 24 months and doesn't require a lot of money on their part and is an obvious sign that they haven't looked into their options from their end.

How? Australia has no offices in IRAQ or Afghanistan, and we wont for a long time. How else are they going to be able to try and apply for asylum but to try and get to the country they seek asylum in.

There are no options from their end. If they stay, they have a good chance of being killed.



Think about it this way: Australia is country at war. All the cities have been decicrated, and there is a good chance that tomorrow you and your family could die. You wish to seek Asylum in Canada.

Hold on, Canada has no offices in Australia. What do you do? Seek out some way of going through another countries offices? Nope, they don't want to take your business. So what is your only choice left.

You seek out a people smuggler and pay him all your life savings so your family can get on a boat haded for Canada. But the people smuggler tells your family there is only enough room for one person. Your family make the hardest decision of their lives and decides to put you on the boat.

So you get on the boat, and the journey takes you two months. It is the most unhygenic conditions imaginable. And all the time your away from the ones you love. Then, when your so close to the shores of Canada, the Canadian Navy stops the boat. You spend approximatly three weeks just sitting in the middle of the ocean, all the time getting eratic and thinking if they will send you back or not.

Finally, they escort the boat to shore, and then your put in a Detention Center. Your not a criminal, you've done nothing wrong except for seeking freedom, and the put you in a prision. 6 Months pass, and still they haven't even looked at you.

12 Months.

18 Months.

Nothing has been done about you. The Canadian government doesn't even want to know about you. You didn't come half-way across the world to look at barb-wire fences again.



That's what these people have gone through.

Ask yourself this: Do any other countries put people seeking refugee status in prison's in the middle of the desert? Do any other countries even have prison's from refugee's?

If not then why Australia? Why does a country with a considerably small population, whose population is boastingly multi-cultural treat other human beings like comon criminals?

 

You need a visa to enter a country for a holiday. If you want to stay, the government needs to know a whole lot more about you. It is a crime to enter a country without permission.
I sympathise and empathise with these people being away from people they love, being scared and confused, but surely being in a detention centre in Australia awaiting a decision as to you staying is preferable to being in the country you left not knowing wheher you'll be killed or not.
That all being said, the applications should be being processed now, and decisions being made.
However with the world the way it is, who enters any country around the world should be a carefully made and considered decision.

 

They go halfway around the world to get here. There are several countries along the way that would be a lot better than where they came from. They spend a lot of money and go out of their way to get to Australia. As someone else said, beggars can't be choosers. They're not exactly going to the nearest place of refuge.
Plenty of Iraqis do immigrate to Australia legally. Just visit Fairfield in Sydney to see what I mean. I met quite a few there after the gulf war. I would expect that a lot of people from Afghanistan are also doing it legally now too. I don't know all the details but I know there are ways of doing it that are far better and far more legal than paying thousands to some criminal to take a ride in a leaky boat.

 

soneil: Did the Iraqi's that you met seek out Asylum status when they reached Australian Shores?

It's alll about the situation they come from. Some Iraqi and Afghani people may be able to enter the country legally, some are not.

But once again: These people are not trying to enter the country illegally. They are mearly trying to get to Australia so they can obtain Asylum Status.

 

Kahlan72: I agree with you on several points. And you do actually have a point, but I'd rather not have to wait for 12 months in the middle of the desert while the Australian government doesn't want to know about you.

My father knows an Arab man who's wife and son were in the Woomera detention center. He stayed in the centre for seven months and was released. He was quite releaved. But when his Wife and Daughter came over on another boat, they were kept in the Detention Center for 14 months.

Ask yourself this: Is it right to keep people in the center that already have family members inside the country?

EDIT: I'm not sure what Detention Center it was, so it might not of been Woomera.

 

Australia has no offices in IRAQ or Afghanistan, and we wont for a long time. How else are they going to be able to try and apply for asylum but to try and get to the country they seek asylum in.

To get to Australia they have to go through DOZENS of countries which DO have offices. Heck, they could apply to get in through Indonesia. They don't. They're too impatient to wait in the line with the rest of the people

What makes these people, who are sneaking in through our backdoor, anymore worthy of living in Australia than those who applied legally and waited?

They are mearly trying to get to Australia so they can obtain Asylum Status.

No, they're spending all their money and risking their own lives (as well as those of their families) to sneak in Australia when there are already procedures in place to go through. Stupid

 

I can't believe people actually think this crap that is fed out by the Australian government is apsolute canon.

What makes these people, who are sneaking in through our backdoor, anymore worthy of living in Australia than those who applied legally and waited?

They are not trying to sneak in. They are trying to get nito Australia so they can then apply directly for Refugee Status.

No, they're spending all their money and risking their own lives (as well as those of their families) to sneak in Australia when there are already procedures in place to go through.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. They are trying to Obtain Asylum (not sneak) into Australia.

To get to Australia they have to go through DOZENS of countries which DO have offices. Heck, they could apply to get in through Indonesia. They don't. They're too impatient to wait in the line with the rest of the people.

Do you really think that other countries want to deal with them? Also, name me these dozens of countries that have offices over there. I know Indonesia doesn't have offices over there. And since your so knowlegable on the issue, why don't you explain to me the proper process of how these people could obtain Asylum.

 

First off, you have a backlash against immigrants in general after last years gang rape trials - the fact they got off so lightly, that they showed so little respect and remorse (the families and friends as well as the offenders), and just their attitudes in general. People are angry and want someone to punish.

Add to that the whole terrorist backlash, and what people have seen on television etc, with people from these countries cheering and supporting the terrorists.

Then there's the attitudes of some of the refugees shown in the media and reported by people who live and work near the centres. You have refugees that were bundled off to the camps last year, with some who refused to get off the buses because the units were not 5 star. And some went out to shops near the camps and demanded stuff from the shops for free because they were refugees, and basically word got around and they got a reputation as being very ungrateful and arrogant and intimidating.

You then have the boat people from last year, who were offered alternatives, but refused to go anywhere but Australia.

And yes, they are illegal immigrants. I don't think there are many countries in the world where landing a boat on the beach is considered a legal form of entry.

That's just a few reasons why people are not too happy with them. Right or wrong, people have lost sympathy for them.


As for Woomera itself, I have not been there. I have no idea what its like inside. But if conditions are bad enough to sew your mouth shut (and do you really want people in the country that would do that to children?) then by all means do something about it and give them humane living standards. But if its simply a matter of "moral blackmail" (and I hate to agree with Howard, the b----, on anything) because they can't get a visa, then that's something else.


Anyways, that is what I see as the major reasons for the country's attitudes at the moment (A Current Affair poll: 90% of people - or 55000 anyway - support the government on this). Add to that all the personal attitudes and what not, and it's no big surprise people really.

 

Ask yourself this: Is it right to keep people in the center that already have family members inside the country?

No. A lot of people come to our country and then whine about how they want their relatives over as well. If they came here through the legal process then they wouldn't have this problem as they would be processed as a unit. Also, how do we know that their relatives aren't criminals or are carrying some disease?

They are not trying to sneak in. They are trying to get nito Australia so they can then apply directly for Refugee Status.

You didn't answer my question. There are people who are WAITING IN LINE to get into this country. These people ARE sneaking in; they are not coming here LEGALLY. They are trying to enter this country without the governments knowledge

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. They are trying to Obtain Asylum (not sneak) into Australia.

That reply doesn't match the quote. That doesn't disprove the stupidity and selfishness of their actions at all.

Prove how "Obtaining Asylum" is legal

Name me these dozens of countries that have offices over there.

Can't say I know the nations surrounding the countries in question off-by-heart nor whether they have offices. Do you seriously believe that there isn't a SINGLE office in the dozens of countries they go through? You're kidding

I know Indonesia doesn't have offices over there.

News to me

And since your so knowlegable on the issue

Never said I was, nor did I pretend to. I was just expressing my opinion. But, if you insist that I am, thank you

You really need to cool off, mate. Keep a level-head. Don't take it personally. I have the right to voice my opinion just as much as you

 

And yes, they are illegal immigrants. I don't think there are many countries in the world where landing a boat on the beach is considered a legal form of entry.

Your right and wrong. You are wrong in calling these people Illegal immigrants. They can't be an Immigrant since they have no visa. An Illegal Immigrant by definition is someone who has overstayed their visa. As I said above, Australia has over 3,000 Illegal Immigrants currently in Australia. 96% of them are British Backpackers.

You are right however in saying that landing a boat on the beach is not considered a legal form of entry. They are referred to as Unauthorised Arrivals. These people should be processed etc, as outlined by this information paper.

just a few reasons why people are not too happy with them. Right or wrong, people have lost sympathy for them.

There is still a large number of people that support these people. I do.

As for Woomera itself, I have not been there. I have no idea what its like inside. But if conditions are bad enough to sew your mouth shut (and do you really want people in the country that would do that to children?) then by all means do something about it and give them humane living standards.

It has never been confirmed that children's lips have been sewed together. All that is mearly Hear-say and Conjecture. Mearly stating that no children have been confirmed to be involved still creates the air that they might be.

But if its simply a matter of "moral blackmail" (and I hate to agree with Howard, the b----, on anything) because they can't get a visa, then that's something else.

Yes, this really is moral blackmail. But in the end this was the lest resort for these people.


Anyways, that is what I see as the major reasons for the country's attitudes at the moment (A Current Affair poll: 90% of people - or 55000 anyway - support the government on this).

While I don't mean to sound bias or descriminitory, alot of people that support Howard are rednecks. Rmember the 60 minutes talk-back on this a month or two ago. Almost all those people supported it, mainly because they come from the cities and the suberbs. And the mahjority of the backlash 60 Minutes receved on it was from people in small rural towns.


In this argument, both sides are right and wrong. But remember, we are talking about human beings here. How many of you would like to see a member of our family suffer so much that their last resort is moral blackmail?

 

Larko, you willing to put up "refugees" you don't know in your own home without doing any kind of background check first?

Then why should letting them in the country without first determining whether or not they may pose a threat, healthwise or criminal wise, be any different?

 

Also, how do we know that their relatives aren't criminals or are carrying some disease?

We look into their backround and carry out medical tests. And do you honestly beleve that this is about containing diseases? The workers at the centers could just as easily spread it if it was there. But it's not. I'm sorry but these people are more liekly to be terrorists then they are to be carrying a disease. And the chances of them being terrorists are so small it's not even a possibility.

You didn't answer my question. There are people who are WAITING IN LINE to get into this country. These people ARE sneaking in; they are not coming here LEGALLY. They are trying to enter this country without the governments knowledge

I'm going to have to agree with you here. They are jumping the que and are trying to enter unauthorized, but I think that we should at least treat them like human beings.

That reply doesn't match the quote. That doesn't disprove the stupidity and selfishness of their actions at all.

Since when is it selfish for a family to spend their life savings just to send only one of their family over? Stupid? Perhaps, but once again, this is a last resort. And if your desperate enough, you will risk your life to get what you seek.

Can't say I know the nations surrounding the countries in question off-by-heart nor whether they have offices. Do you seriously believe that there isn't a SINGLE office in the dozens of countries they go through? You're kidding.

Their best bet in trying to go through the process legaly is through Pakistan or the Australian Embassy in Iran, but do you think the offices over there want to know about these people? Maybe, we don't really know if these people have actually tried doing this the legal way or not. Maybe their request was turned down.

The fact of the matter is: Yes, there are legal ways to do this, but it's foolish to think that these people have not thought about the alternative before they pay the people smugglers.

News to me.

Yeah, they don't have an Embassy in IRAQ or Afganistan. As for surrounding countries, I have no clue. Truth be told, The Indonesian Government don't want to know about these people either.



You really need to cool off, mate. Keep a level-head. Don't take it personally. I have the right to voice my opinion just as much as you.

Sorry, I'm just getting very spirited in this argument

 

If you want to get technical on definitions, Australian law defines a refugee as someone who can't find employment in their own country. That's it. So people can actually attempt to claim refugee status simply because they are unemployed.

 

It's ok, Crimson. I understand that it is a sensitive issue to a lot of people

Since when is it selfish for a family to spend their life savings just to send only one of their family over?

When they get on a leaky boat to do it

Maybe their request was turned down.

If that was it may be for a reason

GTG for the day.... Happy debating guys!

 

Larko, you willing to put up "refugees" you don't know in your own home without doing any kind of background check first?

No, but that's why they do backround checks. I just think it's a little stupid and neglecting that it takes 12-18 months to have a medical exam and find out details of the person.

Then why should letting them in the country without first determining whether or not they may pose a threat, healthwise or criminal wise, be any different?

That's the whole idea of the detention centers: To determain if they deserve refugee status or not. But taking 12 months to take a blood test is a little much, don't you agree.

 

I have a few points to make here.

Why don't these asylum seekers stay in one of the other countries they have to pass through to get to Australia?

Well, most often they do. Which is why Iran has over 2 million Afghani and Iraqi asylum seekers. And why Pakistan had millions of refugees in squalid camps just within their borders. And why most of the refugees from the conflict in Bosnia were forced to stay in Croatia, even though they had virtually no space available for more people by the time the war ended.

Also look to Rwanda's neighbours as to why it's maybe not the best idea to locate all asylum seekers in the closest country - it means that the closest countries (often third world nations themselves) have to house millions of extra destitute people, which furthers poverty in the region and often destabilises the local governments (Congo is a prime example of this).

And why not apply for asylum in Indonesia? Well, we already pay them to house asylum seekers there. Many have been approved as genuine refugees but are still not allowed into Australia . Now, if Australia isn't even letting in people who have already been granted refugee status why would desperate people take a gamble on it?

And how could Indonesia deal with more refugees when they already have a million internally displaced people from the Aceh province as well as all their other internal problems?

They entered Australia illegally

Actually an asylum seeker is allowed to apply for refugee status in whatever country they land in, whether it's the first, second, third or twenty-third.

And if they did something illegal why are they not charged in a court of law for violating our immigration regulations? I'll tell you why - because they are not breaking the law when they apply for asylum

A few more points need to be considered;

1. Over half of the people in the refugee camps will be accepted as legitimate refugees. This means that we are further traumatising innocent refugees by locking them up like criminals.

2. Children are being locked up. I don't mean the ones with their families (though that's bad enough). I'm talking about unaccompanied children. Christ, we don't even lock up juveniles here when they DO commit crimes and here we are locking up refugee children!

3. The Catholic church has charged that the Government has deliberately slowed down processing of refugee applications after the Tampa embarrassment. This is inhumane and it's complete bastardry, pure and simple.

4. If Australia washes its hands of accepting asylum seekers, what next? Do all other countries start locking down their borders one by one? And then turn around and say 'oops' when the next ethnic genocide takes place and no-one could get out of the bloody country in question?

Australia used to be known as 'The Lucky Country'. Apparently this just means 'The Lucky if you're born here - bugger ya if you're not Country"

New motto of the country : Bugger you Jack, I'm alright.

 

Bravo Zyphyr! Excellent Argument!

 

So what should happen when a thousand or so people arrive on a boat, with no where to go and no-one knowing anything about them?

I really haven't heard alot in the media of opinions on differing ways of dealing with these people. Do they go into safe houses, do they get temporary refugee status and live in the community until status is granted or denied. I don't know the answers, maybe there are better ways than what is already happening. I think this might be a good place for some alternatives to be proposed.

 

The thing is, a lot of the refugees don't know about the finer details of Australian immigration law. Afghanistan's a country in ruins, so it's going to be hard to apply for entry into Australia there. Surrounding countrys aren't in much better condition, so they see Australia as the land of opportunity, a place to start over and a chance at a decent life for them and their families. While I deplore the way the government has handled asylum seekers - hardly "illegal immigrants" since they haven't even made it into society yet - these people don't really have a choice: risk coming to Australia and perhaps being put in a detention facility, or stay in another overcrowded, wartorn nation which doesn't want them either.