Clone Wars The Yoda Arc (6.10-6.13) Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by AkashKedavra_93, Mar 5, 2014.

  1. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    My interpretation regarding what happens after death, from what we see in the Yoda arc, is that it's pretty much like the "life stream" or whatever it was called in Final Fantasy VII.

    That there was a singular life stream from which all life arises (in separate vessels/individuals), but that upon death they rejoin the life stream, and that stream in turn gives rise to new life.

    The Star Wars analogue I felt was that organisms embody "the living Force" but that upon death, the life force of an organism merges into the cosmic force, a single body, where individuality ceases to exist. And from this cosmic Force, the living Force arises again. Filoni had remarked that pretty much the living Force and cosmic Force give way to each other, and that both arise from the other. In death, the living Force joins the cosmic Force (analogous to the life stream), and from the cosmic Force, the living Force arises.

    Thus when Padme dies, her life Force will join the cosmic Force, meld with it, but then eventually give rise to new life.

    The question that raises for me though, is if "Force ghosting" is a temporary state. Qui-Gon retains his identity after death long enough to instruct Yoda, but by the time of the OT, he doesn't seem to be having any kind of input with Luke or his training. Does Qui-Gon go on to join the cosmic Force between the Yoda arc and the OT?

    To retain one's identity permanently and absolutely refuse to join the cosmic Force seems like a selfish exercise in maintaining immortality. Thus, I wonder if characters like Yoda, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan retain their identities only as long as they need to in order to instruct Luke (or get the ball rolling, in the case of Qui-Gon), but then let go and join the cosmic Force once the Empire falls and their work is complete?
    Last edited by TaradosGon, May 3, 2014
  2. purplerain Force Ghost

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    Based on that logic, adding to the Cosmic Force is a good reason to murder someone. This logic is saying that being an individual is selfish and not a right.
    Last edited by purplerain, May 3, 2014
  3. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    Not at all. A person is born, lives for awhile, and then dies, their essence then joining the cosmic Force and ultimately giving rise to new life. Kind of like how the Father in Mortis talks about the Force is balance leading to death being followed by renewal. By refusing to join the cosmic Force, they are extending their existence as individuals permanently (unless this is merely a temporary state) and their life Force never rejoins the cosmic Force, and therefore does not contribute to the next generation of life.

    And it just kind of goes against Yoda's own advice. He tells Anakin to rejoice for those that have joined with the Force, and yet he's keeping himself as a separate entity? This makes sense in so far as Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon need to retain their identities to fulfill their mission of training Luke and Yoda respectively, but to retain themselves as individuals permanently seems selfish, since that is not the natural order of what is meant to happen when anyone else dies.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, May 3, 2014
  4. purplerain Force Ghost

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    What's wrong with not contributing to the next generation of life? People have the right to live for themselves exclusively and eternally.
  5. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    IMO, I would regard that as selfish. I am an atheist, I do not believe in an after life, therefore I think any talk of the right to live eternally does not extend beyond mere conjecture and faith. But within the internal logic of Star Wars and how Jedi are meant to be selfless, them going to talk to a priestess and learning how to achieve spiritual immortality because it's "their right" seems antithetical to everything that the Jedi are about. This is a power known only to a few, and that only those that have proven themselves selfless can even achieve, presumably because it proves them responsible of not abusing the power. Thus, I can't picture Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan or Yoda feeling they are entitled or have any right to immortality.

    In a way their "souls" would be immortal, they just would mesh with others in the cosmic Force and thus would give rise to a new individual, as opposed to retaining a sense of their old individuality.

    This is how the life stream was explained in FFVII, which is pretty much exactly how I interpreted the concept of the Force as explained in the Yoda arc.

  6. Vialco Force Ghost

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    I was rewatching the Lawless today and when I saw this scene, I had a different interpretation of it. Palpatine declares "You have become a rival!" and throws the brothers against the windows. The glass cracks and shatters and we see Maul and Savage visibly struggle against Sidious's Force Grip. Then Sidious cackles and lets them down. All three ignite their blades and the battle commences.

    I must confess, when I first saw this episode, I always thought that Sidious was able to throw the brothers because he caught them off guard, and after they started struggling against his Force Grip, he couldn't hold them any longer without considerable exertion, so he let them down and dealt with them by dueling. However, your take on it is fairly interesting, it didn't occur to me that Sidious could have crushed them instantly, and was toying with them the entire time. However, considering that his goal was to eliminate Savage and break Maul, this makes more sense. Sidious wasn't there to just kill the brother outright, he wanted to eliminate Savage and beat Maul down, so he could have other uses for him.
  7. Alixen Force Ghost

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    Thing is, to go onto the topic of FFVII, even that wasn't as cut as dried as the ceasing of the individual. As we see with Zack. I don't use Aeris as an example because she is 'special'. I just really don't like the concept as SW seems to be portraying it, it seems very shallow in a way. I was heartened in RotS when Yoda talked of the Netherworld of the Force, and how various Jedi mentioned the dead would always be with others, and how Yoda mentioned 'friends long passed'. But they seem very much to be trying to steer it towards 'one/collective'-ness, where the individual ceases.

    But like I say, i try not to let it bother me too much that [insert favorite character here] died and ceased to be, and instead choose to focus on the hints that this is not the case. The may mysteries of the Force. It certainly has an active (and potentially sentient) will now, as was revealed in these episodes. Wonder if this is what the dead compose? :p
  8. Couq-DK Jedi Youngling

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    I think that is a bit overstated that they cannot, merely that they potential could but they don't believe in such things, as their only conception of power is the here and now feeling of power. In essense life after death is a route to less power for a Sith, this does not abide very well with how a Sith or even a dark jedi would think about the subject. They would rather focus their time on making sure that their death would be later rather than sooner, maintaining but a fraction of their power upon death must seem like declaring they will fail, hardly a Sith philosophy.
    Last edited by Couq-DK, May 4, 2014
  9. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    I don't know much about Easter religions like Shinto or Buddhism (aside from brief mentions of Hindu, Buddhist and Jain beliefs in a history of India class), but I just took it for granted that the "one collective-ness" was an Eastern concept, just as much else in the Star Wars universe is.

    But in religions that deal with the belief of resurrection as opposed to going to some heaven, I see that idea kind of being echoed in that if I am resurrected from a previous life, I still retain no memories of that previous life. I am a new individual even if my "essence" survived to be reincarnated. And while I vaguely am aware that the goal is to achieve a state of Nirvana where an individual can break the cycle of endless rebirth (and you could argue that Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Yoda achieved this), there is still the issue that the Jedi never preached this. They didn't even think this was possible, and when Yoda learns it, he doesn't go proselytizing his knew found knowledge to the rest of the Jedi, instead it remains a closely guarded secret, per Qui-Gon's instructions, to help the Jedi fight the Dark Side, even should they lose The Clone Wars. It seemed like a very specific power handed down to be used as a tool, not a state of being that everyone should strive for to prevent joining the Cosmic Force and being reborn into the Living Force.

    I think that in the frame of mind of one of the Abrahamic religions, this is probably a depressing concept of losing individuality at death, becoming one with energy of the universe and this energy then being reincarnated as new life, without retaining knowledge of the old life. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of Hinduism or Buddhism can correct me, or elaborate further if I am wrong/over simplifying things.
  10. purplerain Force Ghost

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    EU aside, "collective-ness where the individual ceases" seems to have always been the intention:
    "If Vader becomes one with the dark side of the Force, he will lose all identity. If he turns to the good side, he will pass through the Netherworld and Ben will rescue him before he becomes one with the Force." - a draft of ROTJ

    I have speculated as much, with "the dark side" being a hive mind of dead Sith and "the light side" being a hive mind of everyone else.
    Last edited by purplerain, May 4, 2014
  11. Vthuil Force Ghost

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    This is, at the very least, more-or-less how the EU has historically portrayed it.
  12. Alixen Force Ghost

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    Pretty much, I think. But even before Christianity became a big thing for me, when I identified as agnostic, such a concept would have been repulsive and grim for me. Then again, I was raised here in the West, so it may very well be a cultural influence. From what I understand, with the focus on conformity and community in most Eastern cultures, I don't think the individual is considered as important in the West or even Middle-East. Even then though, from what little I understand, while memory and identity are wiped away during reincarnation, the vital energy (or what other religions would call a soul) is the same as before. So in a manner, they still exist.

    One of my problems with it is that Star Wars isn't purely built on Eastern religion, but some Western too. Forgiveness of sin, over karma for example. Anakin Skywalker would have been spending a great many lifetimes as a pathetic lifeform, as Obi-wan would put it.

    Another issue I have with it outside just not finding it satisfying is that it actually almost makes the Sith vindicated in what they do. Not justified, as they tend to commit horrific atrocities, but if they are privy to the death of self as it seems most force users are... well, i'd say its pretty much survival instinct kicking in to fight that good night with every means available to you.


    I am however coming around to my theory that the will of the Force is in fact composed of the consciousness of those who have died, as there is a little support for it, and that Yoda was given 'certain point of view' truths. I don't particularly mind if they get an afterlife like the one I believe in, as I try not to project such things onto my fiction, but I don't think there is anyone out there that finds the idea of their favorite character simply ceasing to be upon death something that inspires them to read/watch on.
    Last edited by Alixen, May 4, 2014
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  13. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

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    Just a thought - what is this "collective life force" is more like "all individual sense of self is merged into more of a 'we' awareness" - some sense of distinctness and yet all consciousness is entwined so that you are what you were AND all of everyone else?

    It's a strange concept to wrap our minds around, I admit - a group soul with a sense of self...
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  14. Alixen Force Ghost

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    That's what i'm going with in my interpretation. Makes the whole thing easier to swallow, and also gives a greater meaning to 'will of the Force'. Last I checked, energy didn't generally have opinions.
  15. wmu'14 Jedi Master

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    Finally watched this arc.
    Love:
    ++++++Liam Neeson as/and Qui-Gon Jinn
    ++++++Gripe all you want about namechange from Korriban to Moriband, that was the planet from prior material
    ++++++Dagobah! And I don't think there was anything that blatantly implied Yoda had never been there
    ++++++Quinlan Vos! Sifo-Dyas! Dooku 'redeemed'!
    ++++++Yoda/Anakin vs Sidious/Dooku
    ++++++ Yoda in the first episode of this arc reminded me so much of Yoda in TESB.

    I had come to these forums quite a bit before watching this episode, and my brother spoiled a lot on it too, and I think a lot of fans are really misinterpreting a lot of items.
    1.) Yoda does not see Anakin kill Shaak Ti. He does not seen clones fighting Jedi. In fact, and I rewound it just to be sure, the lasers shooting at the Jedi are red, not the typical blue shots the clone rifles fire. There is absolutely nothing to indicate Order 66. It seems like the only indication of Order 66 was in the Order 66 arc (which was explained away as a virus I believe and the Jedi trust the clones). The only other indication was Tyranus (who they know as Dooku) ordered the clones. I am not convinced the Jedi knew he ordered them as a Sith. I am also convinced that any doubts put on the clones were ignored by the Chancellor's emergency powers.

    2.) In the episode vision Ahsoka mentions she was expelled from the Order. Are we to interpret The Wrong Jedi arc was indeed supposed to end Season 5 before they knew the show was going to get cancelled? Or was this part rewritten?

    3.) I've seen all over these forums, YouTube, my brother, etc that Yoda seemed to imply he had given up at the end of this arc. I flatout didn't see that at all and, were it not for these fourms, Youtube comments, my brother, etc, I would've been shocked to learn people thought that. He doesn't seem depressed. He doesn't seem bummed. He seems kind of happy.
    Why? He's on his way to learn how to become a Force Ghost.
    I think people are getting confused when Yoda says it doesn't matter who wins the Clone Wars. People are interpreting this as giving up and wanting to wait for Luke. But no, he's saying that because he realizes that the answer is that life will continue on after death through Force Ghost.
    This arc was primarily about Yoda starting to learn Jedi can become Force Ghosts. It makes sense to end the arc on that. The arc was not about Yoda seeing visions of the future that convince him to give up.

    4.) It would've been really exciting to see the Jedi begin investigating the industrial district in a future arc. (You knew they'd start doing this). That, I think, bugged me more about RotS not linking to plot points introduced in AotC (Sifo-Dyas) then anything. I do definitely believe that we would have started the Jedi investigate the industrial district as James Luceno and Taratovsky said that they were both heavily involved with Lucas about the events leading directly up to RotS and in Labryinth of Evil they do heavily investigate the industrial district, only to have Sidious slip through their fingers just before Coruscant is invaded by the Separatists to capture Palpatine. (So even though these aren't canon, both Luceno and Taratovsky pretty much said that their works were all Lucas's idea)

    I can't believe all of the confusion this arc is creating. Going into this arc I was expecting Yoda to see Palpatine as Sidious, clones shooting Jedi, Anakin killing Shaak Ti, Yoda acting all depressed after his odyssey, Anakin kneeling before Sidious, and Yoda seeing Luke.
    Last edited by wmu'14, May 6, 2014
  16. the_sinister_hologram Jedi Grand Master

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    Wouldn't the "Priestesses" be then considered selfish ?
    And what is their purpose anyway ? What does their existence provide the galaxy with ?

    As far as I can tell, they're just very old Force users from ancient times, who first discovered how to "ghost" and have been doing so since.
    They do have greater powers than ordinary Jedi or Sith, but that can be a result of their prolonged lives.
    They do not have ultimate power, because they still need a "Chosen One" to bring balance to the Force (whatever that is). But... they can fly.

    Also, they do not seem to be bound by the concepts of the Light and Dark Sides. They simply are.
    Beyond that, they do not seem to be doing anything noteworthy.
    So what... are they there just to train a few people every few million years and give them knowledge of the past events so that those people can pass the information to others ?

    Do they... take orders from the Force ? Do they impose the will of the Force ? Is the Force self-conscious ? If so, what is its ultimate plan and why does it need the Priestesses ?
    Last edited by the_sinister_hologram, May 8, 2014
  17. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    I would say yes, they are. I don't figure that was Lucas or Filoni's intent for them to be perceived that way, but I can't in any way rationalize how they are not. If they had achieved some ideal state of nirvana and went out to preach these teachings to others, so that they may achieve an eternal place in the Force, free of merging into the Cosmic Force and losing the identity as an individual, that would be one thing. But they don't. Instead they pick very select individuals to achieve immortality, and when Yoda is picked, he is still instructed to NOT tell anyone.

    And I don't think their existence provides anything, and their only purpose in the narrative to produce a deus ex machina solution to the predicament of the Jedi. Their existence, IMO is just as bad as the infamous Catalyst from Mass Effect 3.

    Filoni said there was cut dialogue in which the Priestesses would have remarked that Father (from Mortis) had a "narrow view of the Force," which to me just seems like a cheap trick to pretty much say that the Force is so complex that even the guy that had the power to remove himself from the temporal world and could touch lightsaber blades with his bare hands can't even grasp its complexity. I figure the Priestesses are intentionally meant to be cryptic and mysterious and I don't think they are meant to be regarded as selfish. But instead I look at them and see something more comparable to Q from Star Trek.
  18. the_sinister_hologram Jedi Grand Master

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    Thinking about what you said about being selfish amongst the Jedi, it is interesting to look back at when Yoda tells Anakin in ROTS "Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose".
    In my opinion, this line has a new meaning, after the Yoda arc in TCW.

    And regarding Father and The Ones, it is possible that they too were part of the same order like the Priestesses, but were exiled because their "narrow views".
    Last edited by the_sinister_hologram, May 8, 2014
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  19. Aeneas 1138 Jedi Padawan

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    As a Christian, I, too, find the idea of losing one's individuality at death or being reincarnated as someone else, as in Hinduism, depressing (it is not why I am a Christian, but it is one reason I am glad I am a Christian). It is really little better than the eternal nothingness of atheism - of which I immediately thought when those Sith apparitions told Yoda only nothingness awaited him after death. Hence, I was saddened when I realised that that is apparently what happens in Star Wars.

    I previously thought that the afterlife in Star Wars was more like the Christian conception of Heaven and Hell - Sith were consigned to the eternal madness of Chaos (although that is from the EU), while Jedi presumably retained their individuality in the Netherworld of the Force from which Yoda says Qui-Gon made his way back in ROTS. After all, making his way back implies some sort of agency: if Qui-Gon had simply been dispersed into the Force (essentially ceasing to exist), he could not have made his way back. That statement of Yoda's must, however, now be interpreted in the light of the Yoda arc. Nonetheless, I was relieved when I considered that my favourite characters - Yoda and Obi-Wan - could escape that fate. I would very much like to think of them as living forever. Thus, the Yoda arc makes quite a profound philosophical and, indeed, theological contribution to Star Wars - rendering it more Eastern as regards the afterlife. While the Force itself is certainly more akin to Oriental than Occidental religion, I believe George describes himself as a 'Buddhist-Methodist', which perhaps explains the apparent fusion.

    This might reconcile the Yoda arc with what Yoda says in ROTS. If the Cosmic Force be some kind of collective consciousness, Qui-Gon may have been able to extricate himself from it, at least if that were the will of the Force (that is, the will of this collective comprised of all previously living beings?)
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  20. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

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    I love how Yoda kicked the snot out of his evil side, and rejected it. I was so sure it was going to take a dualistic turn there. I actually cheered, alone in my living room. Embarrassing..... How embarrassing.

    Balance is good winning in the end. Star Wars' can be a confusing Buddhist-Methodist mishmash, but it means, absolutely (Obi-Wan was not a realist in this sense), that we are right to delight in the defeat of evil. Yub nub!
  21. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

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    That's really interesting, and unlike a bunch of stuff GL now tries to make it seem like he had figured out from the very beginning when he obviously didn't, that fits so well I think GL had to have more than he was letting out already figured out when he made the film and this arc gives us more of his vision.
  22. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    I don't see that line as having new meaning, it fits with what Yoda had been telling Anakin as far back as TPM. Fear of loss is a path to the Dark Side. And in AOTC, we hear Anakin tell Padme that attachment is forbidden. And Obi-Wan tells Anakin not to focus on the negative in AOTC.

    Anakin goes to Yoda looking to save someone's life based on premonitions and refuses to let them come to pass. Yoda tells Anakin that death is a natural part of life; that he should rejoice for those that become one with the Force (despite their inability to retain their identity after death), i.e. not to focus on negativity; and also tells Anakin that he needs to let go of everything he fears to lose; i.e. let go of his attachments, as he was told to do back in TPM.

    The only "new meaning" I can put to this, if I really want to, is that Yoda's basically hinting to Anakin that if he lets go of everything and becomes purely selfless, that he'll achieve the Force ghost method of immortality. But there has to be more to it than that. Yoda speaks to Obi-Wan of training involved, and a Jedi's life is sacrifice. Many Jedi would have given their lives in service to others and yet never achieved this ability, and Yoda speaks of the other mode of the afterlife in which the Living Force becomes one with the Cosmic Force and renews itself as being something worth "rejoicing."

    Again, I just see this as fitting in line perfectly with what Yoda had always told Anakin to do. Not reflective of some new insights Yoda had gained during TCW.
  23. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

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    Whether it was a whole new meaning or just a new connection to make seems like a matter of semantics. Whereas before we did not know that Yoda's advice to Anakin was somehow related to the process of becoming a Force-ghost, now we do.
  24. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    How do we know that? He's advising Anakin as to how to deal with the grief of premonitions of a loved one's death. Nothing Yoda says is indicative that he's telling Anakin anything related to Force ghosting. And it's not like the vision Yoda has of fighting Sidious teaches Yoda anything new about himself. Yoda would die to save Anakin. That's just who Yoda is, that's who he was before he ever had that vision, and I feel like he would have given Anakin the exact same advice, even if he had never undergone those trials. Those trials didn't really teach Yoda anything, they were testing Yoda to see if he was worthy of learning the teachings that were to come.

    And yet, there is also a bit of a disconnect in that Yoda is advising Anakin to not worry of death and rejoice for those that join the Force, while he absolutely refused to let Anakin die, and within the context of the vision, it would have led to his own death. Yoda lets Anakin's safety get in the way of his mission, something Obi-Wan scolds Anakin for, in relation to Padme, and again tells Anakin not to help Oddball for the same reason.

    Which then raises the question, is Obi-Wan wrong? Should Anakin have been allowed to save Padme and Oddball? Should helping those in need never be overlooked, no matter what's at stake?
    Last edited by TaradosGon, May 13, 2014
  25. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

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    I did not mean to imply that Yoda made a conscious connection between the two at the time Anakin came to him for advice and that's why he gave him the advice that he did, just that there is a connection both thematically and in terms of how the Force operates between Anakin failing to let go of the physical realm and falling to the dark side versus Qui-Gon and Yoda willingly letting go and learning to become Force-ghosts.
    Last edited by Dark Lord Tarkas, May 13, 2014