The

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Lord Bane, Oct 28, 2001.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Republic_Clone_69 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 1
    Iella, what? Please write another retort when you now something about what I was saying... which concerned the basic anthropoligical structure of hunter-gatherer culture. I was talking about our species' PAST, not our fleeting stint as an intensive-agricultural technological society.

    Methinks you like arguing just for the sake of it, not because you know what point you are attempting to make. I like the way you answer every question posed to you with one of your own. Great way to deflect the issue.
  2. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    "Beneficial to who?" To as many people as possible, while at the same time being detrimental to as few people as possible.

    Whether or not you remember the names and deeds of those who have gone before, the effects of those deeds, however subtle, still ripple through time. The people you touch--in a positive or negative way--will touch others, and those others will do the same.

    While you live, you have tremendous potential to go out and affect other people, and the effects of your actions can be as long-lived as they are understated.

    I believe that God wants us to go out, learn to work together, learn to treat each other with honesty and respect--and in doing so, pool our talents to accomplish great things. What I will never believe in is a God who created billions of lives for the sole purpose of having them seal themselves away from the world, doing nothing but praise His name.
  3. IellaWessiriNRI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2001
    star 4
    R_C_69

    Methinks you like arguing just for the sake of it, not because you know what point you are attempting to make.

    I must admit, I do like informal debate. But arguing without purpose is a waste of time. I know what points I'd like to make. Would you like me to make them straight out? Because they all have to do with God, and that might not be allowed here [face_plain]



    I like the way you answer every question posed to you with one of your own. Great way to deflect the issue.

    Not deflecting, reflecting the issue so you can examine it for yourself.


    EDIT: Darth Geist, I agree wholeheartedly with every word of your post.
  4. imzadi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 4
    Everyone's going to die someday. Personally, I don't think God creates meaning in life. This is getting into the meaning of life kind of question, that I doubt even the Pope could answer. But let me say this, Mother Teresa, she helped people for no other reason than that she thought it was the right thing to do. She was told repeatedly, by the Church, that she shouldn't be doing it, but she did it anyway.

    The purpose of life, without a God, is to live. Our lives don't have to be worthless, and their value is not given to us by God, we make ourselves worthwhile people. And what does it matter that we're going to die someday? It's exactly the same as if we were going to heaven (or hell). If we were going to ultimately end up there anyway, given that everything will end anyway, what is the point of doing anything here? Only to prepare ourselves for heaven, and that is wrong. The world is not a testing ground to see who goes to heaven or hell, nor is it a waiting room for either. It is an existence unto itself IMHO.
  5. IellaWessiriNRI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2001
    star 4
    The purpose of life ... is to live.

    How descriptive. Thank you for that.

    And what does it matter that we're going to die someday?

    It doesn't. And while we're at it, why does it matter that we're alive right now? Without God, life has no purpose.

    It's exactly the same as if we were going to heaven (or hell).

    Umm... actually... no. If there is no heaven or hell, then my only judges are my human peers. And since I can do things they can't see, I can do anything I feel like as long as they don't see it.

    As opposed to there being an omniscient God, to whom one day I will have to be responsible for all of my actions, seen and unseen.

    If we were going to ultimately end up there anyway, given that everything will end anyway, what is the point of doing anything here? Only to prepare ourselves for heaven, and that is wrong.

    You're going to end up in heaven or hell. What you do while you're alive determines where you go. But that's not the ONLY purpose for living.
  6. imzadi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 4
    How descriptive. Thank you for that.

    Indeed it is descriptive. To live is to go out and experience life as you see fit, to make use of your existence.

    Without God, life has no purpose.

    In my opinion, I do not think God gives our lives purpose, and that is also how I interpret the Bible. Simply doing things because it pleases God, or God says to is against the teachings of the Bible IMHO. Doing things to get into heaven is not what the Bible teaches, so living our lives to get into heaven is the same. We should do things because our own conscience says so.

    Umm... actually... no. If there is no heaven or hell, then my only judges are my human peers. And since I can do things they can't see, I can do anything I feel like as long as they don't see it.

    Actually no, your only judge is yourself. If you believe what you are doing is right, then nothing anyone can say will change that. I'm not saying people can't be wrong about what they think is right. Just because one doesn't believe in God, doesn't mean they are going to go around committing crimes, the same as people who believe in God don't automatically become good people.

    You're going to end up in heaven or hell.

    In your opinion.
  7. IellaWessiriNRI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2001
    star 4
    Simply doing things because it pleases God, or God says to is against the teachings of the Bible IMHO.

    How so? Do you have a specific verse?

    Doing things to get into heaven is not what the Bible teaches, so living our lives to get into heaven is the same.

    Doing things to get into heaven doesn't work, which is something the Bible emphasizes. However, the Bible does say:

    As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

    James 2:26 (NIV)

    Actions doesn't get you into heaven. Your actions are a demonstration of your belief.

    We should do things because our own conscience says so.

    Conscience can become corrupt, or it may cease to exist. Do you think the terrorists had a twinge of conscience when they ran the airplanes into the World Trade Center?

    Actually no, your only judge is yourself. If you believe what you are doing is right, then nothing anyone can say will change that. I'm not saying people can't be wrong about what they think is right.

    Ok. If I believe that smacking my brother on the head is right, then nothing anyone can say will change that.

    And yet you admit that I can be wrong about what I think is right?

    But you just said I was right, because nothing can change that. But I'm wrong, right?

    Just because one doesn't believe in God, doesn't mean they are going to go around committing crimes, the same as people who believe in God don't automatically become good people.

    I agree. BUT the fact remains that sin (not crime, necessarily) will be committed, whether or not you believe in God or not. And you will still be held responsible for your sin.

    In your opinion.

    It's not an opinion. It's a belief. And yes, it's only my belief. But it makes sense.
  8. Ender Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 1998
    star 6
    Imzadi, why are you bothing arguing with her? It's like beating your head against the wall.

    The only argument she has is "because the bible god says so!"

    Nothing beats circular logic.
  9. imzadi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 4
    How so? Do you have a specific verse?

    I think it's in the book of Matthew, but I can't be more specific than that. It is a parable about a couple of religious officials who are obeying the strict teachings of the Church (the rituals etc), so much so that they do not carry out the 'spirit' of the teachings.

    Conscience can become corrupt, or it may cease to exist. Do you think the terrorists had a twinge of conscience when they ran the airplanes into the World Trade Center?

    Not in their defence here, but they are not Christian and do not have the same values. They believed (of course I'm assuming here for arguments' sake), that they were doing as God wished, as they had been taught. Nothing anyone could have said would have changed their minds, except perhaps God Himself. They did a terrible thing, and I might point out here, that they did it for Faith, to please God, and to get into heaven, which is exactly my point. They believe they knew the will of God, and in my opinion, they are wrong in the extreme. But not only that, they were trying to please God, which as I have been saying is the wrong way to go about things, IMHO.

    Ok. If I believe that smacking my brother on the head is right, then nothing anyone can say will change that.

    I'd be a little worried if you truly thought that was right.

    And yet you admit that I can be wrong about what I think is right? But you just said I was right, because nothing can change that. But I'm wrong, right?

    No, I did not say that at all.

    I said If you believe what you are doing is right, then nothing anyone can say will change that. I'm not saying people can't be wrong about what they think is right.

    None of this says that because you believe you are right you automatically are. I agree that conscience can be corrupted, but that happens whether you believe in God or not.

    It's not an opinion. It's a belief. And yes, it's only my belief. But it makes sense.

    I apologise for my mis-wording. It is your belief, and it does make sense to you.

    Ender said, Imzadi, why are you bothing arguing with her?

    I was actually just putting my thoughts out there for everyone, seems like the others have given up though. ;)
  10. IellaWessiriNRI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2001
    star 4
    Ender:

    The only argument she has is "because the bible god says so!"

    This is the reason I was so hesitant about actually stating my beliefs in the previous few pages of posts. Instead, I just ask you to examine your statements for yourselves. Once I start talking about God, I get a whole bunch of cr@p about how all I can talk about is God.

    Why do I bother talking to you? It's like beating my head against a wall.

    EDIT:

    Nothing beats circular logic.

    Try no logic at all.
  11. Ender Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 1998
    star 6
    I agree, you lack logic.
  12. imzadi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 4
    Instead, I just ask you to examine your statements for yourselves. and Try no logic at all.

    Taking together in the same post, this suggests that because we believe differently than you, we are illogical and that our statements are faulty in and of themselves, simply because they contradict other people's views. Logic is subjective.

    Some people here think worshipping God is illogical, but people cannot just say they are wrong because they disagree.
  13. Ender Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 1998
    star 6
    I was actually just putting my thoughts out there for everyone, seems like the others have given up though.

    Keep posting. Your posts are a good read. I admire your patience. ;)
  14. imzadi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 4
  15. Hatshepsut Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Challenge: To prove the existence of God without using the Bible, or any other holy writ, as evidence. Or, to definitively prove that there is no God.
    Difficult, isn't it? ;)
  16. Lord Bane Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    star 5
    The presence of faith is the only way one can determine if there is a God or not, and this is still a personal thing.

    Lack of faith dictates no God, and the opposite holds true. For the individual.

    And Ender - you have a warning for smart alecy remarks. I don't care if you posted a smiley, condescending posts won't be tolerated.
  17. Ender Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 1998
    star 6
  18. Lord Bane Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    star 5
    I have many windows open. I think they all merged into one image in my head when I warned you. Warning stands for the "lack of logic" remark, but no ill will for the smiley.

    :D
  19. Ender Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 1998
    star 6
    I thought you meant I was directing a sarcastic comment to imzadi.


    The bane of modship getting to you, Lord? :D
  20. Lord Bane Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    star 5
    I've already banned you once tonight for...I think it was getting on my nerves... [face_devil] Want to go for the sequal? Maybe we can make this a series.

    But back to topic...God. Yes, no, impossible to decide?
  21. Doright Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 1999
    star 5
    "impossible to decide"

    I think 'impossible to prove' would be a better way of putting that. At least to others anyway.
    I recently have be touched by God in a real personal way. This is a feeling inside of my hart and soul that Proves to ME without a doubt that there is a God. Proving to others is the hard part. Until someone notices and Feels how God is working in their lives they will tend to disbelieve Testimony of believers. It's not a matter of intelligence, common sense, or proof. It's something you feel deep down. IMHO.
  22. Hatshepsut Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Doright, I have no doubt that you encountered the energy of something much greater than yourself, perhaps even the evidence of a supreme being... but I'm curious as to how Christians (and people of other faiths) can interpret these moments to prove the existence of "their" God. When you were touched, how did you know it was Yaweh rather than Ahura Mazda, or even something else that humans haven't even imagined yet?
  23. Force of Nature Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 1999
    star 3
    LlaWessiriNRI, thanks for responding to my question.

    "An atheist's life doesn't lack purpose."

    OK, so maybe no-one ever said it did. It wasn't intended to be a direct quote from anyone.

    "The atheist shows that he or she believes his or her life has no purpose because of what he or she believes."

    I thought you'd lost me there, but maybe I can see what you're getting at.

    "If there is no God, and we are all just the result of an explosion of matter, then you are simply a collection of complex molecules. And your purpose is... basically to live until you die."

    Can't argue with that.

    "So what's the purpose of living?"

    Off the top of my head, I'd say that the purpose of living is living. Other than that, according to me, it doesn't have one; that's what I'm puzzled about.

    That being said, being alive is extremely interesting and often rather pleasant; and insofar as I have any overall objective, it's to enjoy what I believe to be a unique experience.

    I agree with the quote cydonia posted: "The mystery of life is not a problem to be solved, but a reality to be experienced."

    "Why can't you go around killing random people? It doesn't make a difference, does it?"

    Have to disagree with you there; it would make a considerable difference, not least because I don't want random people killing me!

    "I'm not saying worry about the future. I'm saying look at the future objectively. If everything is just going cease to exist one day, then what is the point of living? Why does humanity exist?

    Already addressed the 'point of living' bit. Humanity exists, IMO, as a (for us) fortunate accident.

    "It doesn't." (matter that we're going to die someday) And while we're at it, why does it matter that we're alive right now?"

    It only matters to me in so far as I'm enjoying the ride, and that includes having my friends and loved ones around.

    "Without God, life has no purpose."

    Ah ha! That sounds promising. My apologies if my not-really-a-quote misled you earlier.

    Are you saying that, if God exists, life does have a purpose? I think you are, because you also said:

    "You're going to end up in heaven or hell. What you do while you're alive determines where you go. But that's not the ONLY purpose for living."

    That sounds to me as though there are at least two purposes for living, if God exists.

    If I've understood you correctly, could you (or someone) please elaborate?
  24. IellaWessiriNRI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2001
    star 4
    imzadi:
    Taking together in the same post, this suggests that because we believe differently than you, we are illogical and that our statements are faulty in and of themselves, simply because they contradict other people's views.

    Not because they contradict my views... but if I don't argue when I (personally) see your arguments as containing fault, then what is there to discuss? Should we all just agree on everything? That wouldn't make for a very exciting discussion... [face_plain]


    Force of Nature:
    "Why can't you go around killing random people? It doesn't make a difference, does it?"

    Have to disagree with you there; it would make a considerable difference, not least because I don't want random people killing me!


    Right. It does make a difference, for the reason that life isn't purposeless. What I don't understand is how you can live by the philosophy "We live just to live." If that's not circular thinking, then what is? ?[face_plain]

    If I've understood you correctly, could you (or someone) please elaborate?

    You want it from my point of view? Because I know I'm going to get a whole lot of posts telling me how retarded it is. Oh well...

    1. Love God
    Mark 12:30 "And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength."

    2. Love others
    Mark 12:31 "The second is this, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these."

    3. Obey God
    Dueteronomy 13:4 "You shall follow the Lord your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him."

    4. Witness to others about God
    Matthew 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

    5. Glorify God
    I Corinthians 6:20 "For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body."

    Those are the reasons (off the top of my head) that we live on earth.

    And please, no smart remarks about how all I can talk about is God. Force of Nature asked the question based on the assumption (if) God exists.
  25. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    IellaWessiriNRI,

    I think you are allowed to discuss god all you want on the Senate Floor as long as it's respectful. But i wonder what your motivation is for taking every single poster on. If you want to convert us, it would seem to me the best way would be to be an example of God's love. Everyone loves a great debate, but it seems you just like arguing and putting people on the defensive.

    Now, as far as what i said earlier, you created a monologue that was supposed to be me talking. In it you said "heck, there's no afterlife anyway." I said don't put words into my mouth. I never said i didn't believe in some sort of afterlife, however nebulous my conception of that could be. So don't put words in my mouth. Please. I can play that game too.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.