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Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Lord Bane, Oct 28, 2001.

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  1. Kitt327 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2000
    star 4
    'pre-observable'. You are saying that if the outcome of a choice can be observed 'before' it happens, then it can't be a choice. Sounds fair enough to me.

    But that principle cannot be applied to the hypothetical situation of a god and it's creation.

    God can't observe anything 'before' it's happened. The past, future and present all happen at once. Even that statement doesn't fully capture the situation.

    It all comes down to Time. The same idea could be applied to a person reading a book or watching a film, which run along different a time.


    Still, it could possibly be argued that free choice still holds even if the outcome is pre-observed within the same timeframe.

    If there's one thing modern physics has taught us about Time, it's that the arrow of time doesn't point in one direction only. The future effects the past, just as much as the past effects the future.

    Why does it matter if I 'pre-observe' someone's choice? If they had made a different choice, I would simply have 'pre-observed' something else. There is nothing that says my observation cancels out their freedom.

    If I had a pair of 'future' binoculars, and I see someone turn left, I can't see why that automatically means it was physically impossible for them to turn right, or that they had no choice in the matter.
  2. Sith_Lord_Dore Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2001
    star 1
    Ok not trying to offend any1 here i agree with what han in what he says in ANH "i'v seen alot ...... controlling my destiny" i think u know the one well i agree with what he says that there might be a god but there's nuffin yet to see anything to make me change my mined about it.
    Peace
  3. jediguy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2000
    star 5
    Never let punctuation stand in the way of a good idea...
  4. Doright Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 1999
    star 5
    Feelings aside.. I believe in God and I offer my existence as proof. I just find it hard to believe that a puddle of chemicals could evolve on it's own into a Thinking, Feeling, intelligent being. Something had to be guiding that process along for it to reach the end result that we see today.





  5. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I believe in God.

    Why because I think someone created the universe.

    I feel someone talks to me when I'm down or about to do something stupid.

    Hence.

  6. FlamingSword Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2001
    star 6
    A quote from Einstein I always liked was, "What really interests me is whether God had any choice in the creation of the world."

    Pretty interesting question really.

    I'm still refining my idea of what God is. I know he exists, but in what form is another matter. I don't see God in the traditional way other people see him.

    God is. He is not a personal being in the sense that we make decisions and have our human behavior. As Einstein said, maybe God didn't have a choice in creating the universe. Each and everyone of us are a part of God. Or rather part of us is a part of God. Like I said I'm still trying to figure out this idea of God, that I may sound confusing.

    As for evidence that God exists, I don't think you can find physical evidence. You can only use logic (which goes both ways) and your personal faith. Maybe there is a way to prove or disprove the existence of God, but I doubt it is possible.
    But with all the awesome wonder of the universe, how could there not be something more, some great spiritual being.
  7. Obi-Wan_and_only Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2001
    star 2
    I think the problem is that we can't really comprehend God, no matter how hard we try. Atheists (usually) base their nonbelief in God on observances (The Big Bang made the universe, not God, for example. BTW, the Big Bang did most likely happen). What's wrong with this is the people who made up the stories about God were wrong in the first place. Might have been close, but were still wrong.
    I think people forget that God si the reason for the physical laws in the first palce. Accordign to science, something can't really define itself as an explanation (ie the sky is blue because it's blue isn't all that scientific). Saying God doesn't exist because natural law can be explained is bunk because God IS the natural law. God's everything. You looking at God when you're lookign at the mirror. You're looking at God when you look at your cat or dog. And you're still way off :p
  8. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    I tend to agree with doright, if we're here we didn't get here by ourselves. God could be anything, a thought or a process, a thing. I don't care. The word God is actually wrong for me. Something made something, or thought something, and we're it.
  9. ktwsolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2001
    star 4
  10. Emperor_Dan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 1999
    star 4
    I find believing in God or a god is completely ridiculous idea. I don't want to waste my time praying or making sure I do things "his" way to makes sure I get into heaven. I have a life here to live, and I think my own judgement of what is right or wrong is good enough.
  11. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Actually you bring up a very good point I wrote a sermon on once.

    A man went to church every day, prayed, and did charity work...

    on the day he died he found himself in Hell.

    "What am I doing here?"

    The Devil answered something along the lines of that he did it all to get into Heaven when he should have been doing it because he loved his fellow man.

    God in most cultures made us in his own image or at least a pleasing one.

    Hence you should trust your own morality and merely be thankful he's there.

  12. White-male Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2001
    star 1
    I believe in God. BTW on the post above, why would he go to hell? I mean as long as he accepted Jesus doesnt he go to heaven?
  13. IellaWessiriNRI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2001
    star 4
    Look at yourself in the mirror. If you're an atheist, think this to yourself: "I am nothing except for a collection of chemicals. I am worthless. I have no purpose. I was the result of an accident on a universal scale."

    Eventually... it'll get to you.

    And... if that doesn't work... look at your best friend, your spouse, etc... and think the same thing about them. They are nothing except for a collection of chemicals. They are worthless. They have no purpose. They are the result of an accident on a universal scale. Do you believe that? Because essentially... that's the truth if there's no God. [face_plain]
  14. 1stAD Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2001
    star 5
    Yes, the truth...from a certain point of view.
  15. imzadi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 4
    I disagree, IellaWessiriNRI.

    Life exists. Why?

    Personally, I think it is our purpose in life to better ourselves and humanity (wow, that sounds familiar ;)) and to live a productive and respectable life.

    Sure, I'm a collection of chemicals, but I'm also capable of thought and action. My personal purpose in life is to live a happy life with love, respect, and to contribute to humanity, even if only in a small way. My family and friends are also collections of chemicals, as you put it, but they have emotions, they produce emotions in me, they affect my life and other people's lives. This is the same if they believe in God or not.

    It's the age old question, what is the meaning of life?
  16. 1stAD Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2001
    star 5
    Life...is. Everything else gets in the way.
  17. Emperor_Dan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 1999
    star 4
    IellaWessiriNRI - I find that rather neat. It's what makes us so interesting - we're an accident, and look what we can do! Amazing!

    "You serve no purpose" No, not really. We just live and do thinks as we want, and whatever. Sure I have a purpose - to get an A in the next exam. Personal goals and such are meaningful purposes. So what if I'm not part of some big huge plan? I wouldn't really notice it anyway.
  18. Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2000
    star 7
    Personally, I believe in God in a very real and everyday sense. I feel that God is with me in everything that I do.

    Noting immediatly that it is impossible to prove that God exists, just as it is impossible to prove that God does not exist, I still look forward to following this debate.

    Alpha wolf: I'd love to hear the rest of those arguments. :D

    Interesting idea, I came on a long time ago, is the idea of the Lonesome Gods: the Gods once believed in by certain cultures, like the Native Americans or native cultures that no longer exist. If no one exists to give praise and service to these gods, then do they cease to exist? Did they ever exist at all or were they merely extensions of whatever actual God there is? If they did exist independantly, are they still around, lonely though they might be?

    Basically, I'm asking: Do you think that religion matters? Is there one God over it all with many paths to him? Or do many different sides to God exist with a different path to each side? Or is one religion right and the others wrong?
  19. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    Hey guys, try this article about the power of prayer on for size:

    The Power of Prayer in Medicine

    People Who Are Prayed for Fare Better
    By Jeanie Davis

    Nov. 6, 2001 -- Here's more evidence that -- in medicine, as in all of life -- prayer seems to work in mysterious ways.

    In one recent study, women at an in vitro fertilization clinic had higher pregnancy rates when total strangers were praying for them. Another study finds that people undergoing risky cardiovascular surgery have fewer complications when they are the focus of prayer groups.

    The fertilization study -- conducted at a hospital in Seoul, Korea -- found a doubling of the pregnancy rate among women who were prayed for, says Rogerio A. Lobo, MD, chair of Obstetrics and Gynecology at Columbia University School of Medicine in New York City. His study appears in the September issue of the Journal of Reproductive Health.

    "It's a highly-significant finding," Lobo tells WebMD. "I'm first to say we don't know what this means."

    The randomized study involved 199 women who were undergoing in vitro fertility treatments at a hospital in Seoul, Korea, during 1998 and 1999. All women were selected for the study based on their similar age and fertility factors, Lobo tells WebMD.

    Half the women were randomly assigned to have one of several Christian prayer groups in the U.S., Canada, and Australia pray for them. A photograph of each patient was given to "her" prayer group. While one set of prayer groups prayed directly for the women, a second set of prayer groups prayed for the first set, and a third group prayed for both groups.

    Neither the women nor their medical caregivers knew about the study -- or that anyone was praying for them.

    "We were very careful to control this as rigorously as we could," Lobo tells WebMD. "We deliberately set it up in an unbiased way." That meant not informing patients they were being prayed for, so it would not influence the women's outcome. Whether the patients were praying for themselves -- or if others were praying for them -- "we don't know," he says.

    The women in the "prayed for" group became pregnant twice as often as the other women, he says.

    "We were not expecting to find a positive result," says Lobo. Researchers have re-analyzed the data several times, to detect any discrepancies -- but have been unable to find any, he says.

    Lobo admits there may be some "biological variable" that they have not discovered, which could account for the high success rate among the prayed-for women. He and his colleagues are already planning a follow-up study also involving in vitro fertilization.

    The second study involves 150 patients -- all having serious heart problems, all scheduled for a procedure called angioplasty, in which doctors thread a catheter up into a clogged heart artery, open it up, and insert a little device called a stent to prop it open.

    Patients who were prayed for during their procedure had far fewer complications, reports lead author Mitchell W. Krucoff, MD, director of the Ischemia Monitoring Laboratory at Duke University Medical Center and the Durham Veterans Administration Medical Center in Durham, NC.

    His study appears in the current issue of the American Heart Journal.

    Krucoff enrolled 150 patients who were going to have the stent procedure, and then randomly assigned them to receive one of five complementary therapies: guided imagery, stress relaxation, healing touch, or intercessory 'off site' prayer -- which meant they were prayed for by others, or to no complementary therapy.

    All the complementary therapies -- except off-site prayer -- were performed at the patient's bedside at least one hour before the cardiac procedures.

    Seven prayer groups of varying denominations around the world -- Buddhists, Catholics, Moravians, Jews, fundamentalist Christians, Baptists, and the Unity School of Christianity -- prayed for specific patients during their procedures.

    Each prayer group was
  20. Watrfae Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2001
    star 4
    I believe in a 'deity' or 'higher power' but I have no proof.... it just 'rings true' the same way good art, and tasty soy tacos do.

    :)

    ~me
  21. IellaWessiriNRI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2001
    star 4
    We just live and do thinks as we want, and whatever. Sure I have a purpose - to get an A in the next exam. Personal goals and such are meaningful purposes. So what if I'm not part of some big huge plan? I wouldn't really notice it anyway.

    so your sole purpose in life is to get an A on your next exam? Personal goals... but what's the whole purpose? Why does it matter what you do now, when you're just going to die eventually... and it's all just going to end? What you do while alive really has no meaning if there is no God... eventually, mankind is going to die out anyway, right? Then what's the point of all our wonderful technological and scientific advancements? If there is no God... then there is none.

    Think long term. Like... REALLY long term. What's the point of contributing to humanity if humanity is just going to end? If it's all going to go "phut" one day... and so are you... What's the point of living? Why aren't you willing to kill yourself now? Because you have purpose. And that purpose comes from something other than humanity. [face_plain]
  22. Ender Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 1998
    star 6
    There's a similar study on the benifits of meditation as well.

    Buddhists seem to benifit from meditation as much as Christians benifit from prayer.
  23. imzadi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 4
    IellaWessiriNRI: Why does it matter what you do now, when you're just going to die eventually... and it's all just going to end? What you do while alive really has no meaning if there is no God... eventually, mankind is going to die out anyway, right? Then what's the point of all our wonderful technological and scientific advancements? If there is no God... then there is none.

    We can leave behind something, create beautiful things, advance our knowledge, and work so that mankind doesn't die out. I don't understand how God is the only means of having purpose in life. Is the sole purpose in life to go to heaven? No, I don't think so. Is the sole purpose of life to worship? No. The only other thing God provides is the sense of community and love for your fellow humans (ideally). But God is certainly not the only way to attain this.
  24. Ender Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 1998
    star 6
    Nice response, imzadi.


    I've gotten tired of addressing that question by Christians.


    Perhaps the purpose to our lives is to become gods.

    I believe Arthur C. Clarke came up with that idea.
  25. Already-Turned Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2001
    star 3
    I analyse everything in my life. Everything from when I will get up, my diet, my career choice.... Everything. To do so I take into account as much information as is available to me. I analyse this info and discard the least relevant and likely information.

    So when confronted with the issue of the existance or nature of a god, I take into account nearly all my experience.

    From what I've been told, from what I've learnt, fom what I've seen, I don't have any proof for the existance of a god. To me a lack of defintive proof of what, if it did exist, would certainly be directly observable and powerfull force, indicates a lack of existance.

    There are simply other, more plausible theories than a theory based on religion.

    Thus there is no good.
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