The

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Lord Bane, Oct 28, 2001.

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  1. Doright Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 1999
    star 5
    But then how is you are able to think and analyze....I just cannot believe that a puddle of chemicals could do that on it's own.

    If life just happened on it's own we would just be a bunch of plants or simple animals.. Some instinct but no creative thought or reasoning. The ability to think and feel beyond simple eat/poop/mate/survive is what shows me there must be a God. Well other than what I feel in my hart.

  2. Already-Turned Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2001
    star 3
    You may think it is unlikely that sentiince could have evolved without some sort of divine intervention?

    This all comes back to an arguement listed in Stephen Hawking's 'brief history of time and space'. The idea is that if life should not be suprised that it finds itself in a universe which is suited to life's development, simply because such a form of life would have come to be in any other less suitable universe! In other words it's here because where else would it be?

  3. TrainingForUtopia Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2001
    star 4
    LOL, I love how some of you guys try to define what God can and cannot do by using scientific theories! I'm sure it gives Him a pretty good chuckle to.

    The nature of God is something beyond human comprehension. If He created the universe and all the laws that govern it, I'm pretty sure he'd be able to break those laws to! Once again:

    It may be hard to comprehend, but yes, God can break the laws of physics or quantam mechanics, or whatever!
  4. Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2000
    star 7
    Agreed, Utopia, agreed.

    AlphaWolf: Regarding your Anthropological proof, have you read much of Jung and his theories of Universal Unconsciousness? That could explain that, if you buy Jung, which I'm not sure I do, completely, but still, it's interesting to think about.

    It ties into how many different cultures also have a flood myth. Noah, Gilgamesh, and there are some others that have slipped my mind.
  5. Already-Turned Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2001
    star 3
    Well believe what you want. For me I have no faith (in anything) I am as skeptical of the concept of a god as I am of flying saucers and boogeymen. For me there is the same degree of validty.

    With regards to the scientific evidence for or against god, I'll agree, there is no conclusive evidence for or against.

    There is however a great deal of scientific evidence and validation of theories which suggests that many theories put foward in the Judeo-Christian philosophy, regarding to the creation of the planet is innacurate. This tends to reduce the reliability of further theories put oward by such a philosophy. In other words, would you trust a proven lier to tell the truth?

    Regardless of whether or not you buy into the creationist arguement, there is also the idea that science, regardless of whether on not the currently held theories are correct, WILL inevitable find the facts. The whole process of science means that any theories derived from it are organic and constantly changing and adapting, as new facts come to light. Inevitably, given time and the expanded powers of perception and deduction that become available to scientists over time, if there is a god then conclusive evidence will be found for it.

    Until that day I remain skeptical, and am thus and atheist.

    Prove yourself god, and I'll believe.

  6. doggiedog13 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2001
    i do believe in a god. although we have no proof to say that there is a god, i do believe in a god.
  7. FlamingSword Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2001
    star 6
    The nature of God is something beyond human comprehension. If He created the universe and all the laws that govern it, I'm pretty sure he'd be able to break those laws to! Once again:

    It may be hard to comprehend, but yes, God can break the laws of physics or quantam mechanics, or whatever!


    The nature of God may be beyond human definition. That God can break the laws of physics or any other laws in the universe is another matter. In my view, God is those laws and as long as this universe exists he cannot (because they are him) change them. Maybe the next universe will be different, with different laws. Meanwhile God is this one.
  8. Already-Turned Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2001
    star 3
    Fine flaming sword, if that what you want to believe then go ahead. But I stick to the point that you can't expect others to agree or even give validation or acceptance of your point of view without something more concrete.
    ________________________________________
    Heres the example. I'm standing on the sidewalk of your town when suddenly I claim that a small pink elephant called "Frank the furry saviour" is actually the creator of the universe, that my "Frank" is god.

    I tell people that Frank wants me to tell them to give me all their money, and to surrender to "Frank's will", so that they may live forever in peace in the giant blue cactus amoungst the happy stars

    When questioned about the validity of Frank
    I clain that "Frank" is omnicognant and omnipresent, yet is also invisible and undetectable to modern science. I also claim that he speaks to me through magical telecomunication, telling me the will of "Frank" in all his glory, and that only those who trully believe can also hear him.

    So assuming I do this right now. Do you believe in Frank? How will you decide? You'll use logic, intuition, common sense and you'll way up the costs and benefits to yourself and society.

    So will you surrender your mind and money to him and join us in the blue cactus for eternity?

    No? Because it's not logical, becuase it's implausible or unlikely?
    (Frank says: Blaspehmy!!!!!, hurumph)
    _____________________________________

    Thats how atheists feel. To us God is no more valid than Frank.
  9. TrainingForUtopia Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2001
    star 4
    Yeah, but you would be lying about "Frank". Are you saying that the majority of the world is lying or suffering from mass delusion?
  10. Already-Turned Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2001
    star 3
    Lying, mass delusion? Strong words but possibly approriate.

    I may not have been lying I may believe in Frank, or I may be making stuff up in order to manipulate people.

    Thats why FAITH (belief without proof) is a joke. Frank, God, Yaweh, Mohamad, Sidhartha..... all such concepts of a deity are without definitve proof, and all therefore have no method of validation or disproof. Becuase of this we can argue as much as we want about their existance without a definitve answer. So given that it makes sense (for me at least) to live my life a set of principles and foundations not based on what is more than likely a protracted myth.

    There is just as much factual evidence for Frank as there is for god.
    As you said Utopia its more than likely that proponents of frank are either misguided or lying....... the same applies to proponents of any other belief system reliant on faith.
    __________________________________________
    Anyway I think that pretty much wraps up the arguement of IS there a god, the only answer ever reachable conclusion (untill definitive proof for or against is found) is who knows? Beleive what you want........
    ___________________________________________

    For me the bigger question is "WHY do some humans need a divine aspect to their lives"

    I'll start with the athiest quote

    "That the world is in a bad shape is undeniable, but there is not the faintest reason in history to suppose that Christianity offers a way out."

    Bertrand Russell


    Discuss..........?


  11. Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2000
    star 7
    Regarding "Frank" I just have a couple of questions:

    Does praying to Frank really help those who are sick, in the way that praying to God does, as stated in the above article?

    If tortured, would you stand up for "Frank" to the death, when renouncing him would get you your freedom, in the way that the earliest proponents of faith stood for their God in the face of horrendous torture?

    Read the stories of the martyrs of the faith and I think that will at least remove the idea that they were lying, just for the sake of lying. Study the methods of death and torture used on these people. See that they didn't bend, didn't renounce their God. They weren't lying. You don't die for a lark. Say what you want. In the end, these people believed in God. They really believed.
  12. TrainingForUtopia Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2001
    star 4
    Bravo, Rogue1-and-a-half, bravo!
  13. Sarah_K Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2001
    star 4
    I echo Utopia!

    I'm afraid I'm not C.S. Lewis and do not have to ability to lay things out logically for anybody, but the least I can say is (a) 'I beleive in God the Father, almighty maker of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ his only begotten son, our Lord.', and (b) I have read books on other worldveiws (Marxism/Leninism, some Islam, and Humanism), so I'm not just saying that because it's all I know about.

    I appreciate the fact that this thread was begun and I hope that it will encourage others to both think about, and stand up for their beleifs.

    Please don't be offended if I say: God Bless!

    Sarah >^,,^<
  14. Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2000
    star 7
    Why, thank you. :D

    I agree with Sarah K, regarding C S Lewis. Anyone interested in a logical approach to Christianity, debated and looked at under a microscope, needs to read Mere Christianity. One of the best theological treatises in my opinion.
  15. Ender Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 1998
    star 6
    A similar study found meditation has similar benefits to praying. Meditation involves no praying to a deity.

    Why would that be? You guys have never heard of the placebo effect, eh?


    Second, people have martyred themselves for many other causes. The Heavens Gate cult commited suicide believing the mothership was coming behind the Hale bop comet to take them away.

    That must have been based on reality then with your line of reasoning?

    And to think I thought they were nuts.

  16. TrainingForUtopia Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2001
    star 4
    "The Heavens Gate cult commited suicide believing the mothership was coming behind the Hale bop comet to take them away."

    See, the difference is, one man lied to all of them, and they believed it. That's much different than someone saying they saw Jesus Christ risen from the dead, and they're willing to die for that claim. If someone was lying about seeing Jesus risen, then why would they die for it?
  17. Ender Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 1998
    star 6
    You saw Jesus?

    Aren't you just going by what a book said?


    The same reason that leader of that cult died along with his followers. He actually convinced himself that there was a spaceship trailing hale bop.

    All that it takes is one nut to lead a bunch of nuts into suicide. They're like sheep.

    Some people just aren't all there in the head. Life was pretty harsh back in those days so there were a lot of mental cases walking around.





  18. Ender Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 1998
    star 6
    Edit: Whoops, double post.

    Amazing that people will die for a lie, eh?



  19. TrainingForUtopia Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2001
    star 4
    I never claimed to have seen Jesus, but many did, and they were willing to die for this claim. Are you saying all of them were nut cases? That would be quite a coincidence I think.

    I could understand your argument if there was only one guy who claimed to see Jesus risen from the dead, but there wasn't just one.
  20. Ender Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 1998
    star 6
    Well, there were quite a few Heaven's gate followers who were willing to die without evidence.

    A simple hide the dead body of Jesus would have convinced people in those days as superstitious as they were.
  21. TrainingForUtopia Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2001
    star 4
    You're not getting it, are you?

    People who claimed to have SEEN Jesus risen from the dead were willing to die for that claim.

    Not people who were told by someone that he had seen Jesus risen from the dead, but people who saw for themselves.
  22. Palpazzar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    Ender can you please prove to me that people from say 2000 years ago were mentality inferior to us? Can you prove that all it takes is hiding a body to them to prove something while we are above that?

    Generalizations and dismissals of evidence can be fun, but they don't help the search for the truth.
  23. Lord Bane Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    star 5
    Play nice, kids. I sense growing hostility in the playground today...
  24. Already-Turned Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2001
    star 3
    So?
    So I'm supposed to put absolute trust in a few people who were part of what at the time, was a break off group from standard Judaism? What we today would classify as a cult.

    I don't trust the observations or the accuracy of records of such observations. The christian church has been run my men whose goals included the stability and continuance of their faith. In order to acheive this I think it is quite likely that certain sections of the bible may have been manipulated, if only slightly over time. The problems associated with translation also apply. My point is that the records on aspects of ol JC's life may not be entirely accurate, that over the 2000 years since his death, the factual accuracy of the bible is questionable. Furthermore the actual writing of the bible, which took place many years after Jesus' death, may not be entirely accurate either! You try writing a biography of a man who had died years before, without the aid of modern records or fact storage (like newspapers or other mass media). You write this biography based mainly on your own memory, or the memory of those around you. Room for error or manipulation of facts, situation or nuance? Huge.
    ____________________________________________
    It doesn't matter whether someone is prepared to die, or in other ways make sacrifices for "Frank". People have always found some sort of cause to fight for, from the struggles occuring during the restoration period or the inquisitions, to Facism or Communism to the modern day suicide cults. Terrorists are prepared to lay down their lives for their chosen causes. According to your logic, (Utopia) that means that the ideals of the Sept 11 terrorists are validated by their attacks!


    So what?! The issues of the strength of belief and commiment to that belief, and the validity of such beliefs ARE SEPERATE. You give no credance or validation to your philosophy by arguing that others believed strongly in it. It also doesn't mean that even if YOU were prepared to die for your cause that it's right! Humans are fallible, we don't have perfect judgement, we can easily be swayed by flawed arguement or logic.
    ___________________________________________
    What I'm trying to get across is the idea that you CANNOT, at this time provide me with undeniable existance of a god. Therefore, if we value the processes of logic and the ideal of free thought, and are curious about this question we should investigate many other theories. After doing so we should logically decide which of these theories or a combination of these of these ideas, is most likely.
    We then choose to adopt that theory, regardless of if its Christianity, Atheism, Buhdism or the "High Law of Frank". However (heres the clincher), we must continually examine and question the validity of our choice. We must re-evalute.

    To not do so is to wear blinkers, you are blinded by your own opinion.

    I a god (lets say for example "Frank") appeared before me (say in the shape of a glowing pink elephant) and gave me proof of it's existance, proof which when weighed up was more likely than other theories, I would switch from an atheist to a believer in a god.

    To be a free thinking human, utilising your brain properly, you should do the same.

  25. TrainingForUtopia Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2001
    star 4
    You still don't get it. I never said it made me or anyone else right to die for our religion.

    I asked why the people who actually claimed to have seen Jesus Christ risen from the dead themselves would die for a lie?

    And about writing a biography. Sure they could get a few details wrong, but I'm pretty sure something like Him raising from the dead would stick in your mind if you witnessed it.
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