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Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Lord Bane, Oct 28, 2001.

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  1. imzadi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 4
    I don't mean to be disrepectful, but your comments that because many people saw Jesus risen from the dead, that gives it more validity than if one guy had, is not entirely accurate, in my opinion.

    Let me ask, how many people claim to have seen Elvis alive and well?

    How many people (groups of people) claim to have seen alien spaceships?
  2. TrainingForUtopia Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2001
    star 4
    But those weren't people that all knew each other.

    And would those people be willing to be tortured and eventually executed for those claims? No, of course not, unless they were mentally unstable.
  3. Ender Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 1998
    star 6
    One of the most amazing documents historians of early Christianity are privileged to have is the prison diary of a young woman who was martyred in the year 202 or 203 in Carthage, as part of a civic celebration. Her name is Perpetua. And she insisted on being killed. It's an amazing, complicated story. The diary is in kind of a sandwich. The editor introduces the story, then there's the authentic diary of Perpetua, and then there are editorial conclusions, at the end.

    Perpetua has brought herself to the attention of the governor. And she is really insisting on being put into the arena. There's an incredibly powerful trial scene where Perpetua's father is pleading with her and, finally, actually trying to beat her. And the Governor has him subdued by his soldiers. And the governor says, "Please, won't you cooperate?" And Perpetua, who's not even a baptized Christian, who's still catechumen, says, "No, I'm a Christian." Now, there's no dragnet out for Christians. Perpetua is visited by other Christians in prison. If the governor were trying to get all the Christians in Carthage, he just could have arrested whoever is going to visit Perpetua. But he doesn't. She's what one historian has called an overachiever in a sense. She's insisting on being martyred as part of her Christian witness. She gives her baby back over to her family, because she's still nursing. And she talks about this. And she's really insisting on being martyred because she says, and we have to believe her, this is the only word we have from her, because in so doing, she will get to God through Jesus....

    The authentic diary ends before Perpetua is led into the arena. What we have concluding the diary is a description by somebody who is presenting a hero tale. The majority of Christians were not volunteering to be martyred. For one thing, there wouldn't have been an audience for these martyr stories. For another thing, we have doctrinally, the evolution of penance as a way to reincorporate Christians who lapse in the face of persecution. So Perpetua is really being preserved by her community as a role model. She marks off the heroic limit against which other Christians can measure themselves. She's led out to the arena. She, with heroic chastity, faces down the animals and gladiators, and finally, after being tormented by several animals, a young gladiator is sent into the arena to dispatch her. And it's just an incredibly moving scene; his hand is trembling so much he can't cut her. And she grabs his hand and guides his sword to her own throat. It's a kind of assisted suicide....



    She never saw Jesus rise from the dead and yet she was willing to do this. She's basically commiting suicide. She's nuts as far as I am concerned.


    Also, what a lot of Christian theologians fail to mention is a lot of these martyrs did have second thoughts and started pleading for their lives.

    The Aztecs were willing to die for their gods when the Spanish started torturing and killing them in an effort to convert them to Christianity. Thousands of them refused to convert to Christianity while being tortured. They would be killed and they knew it if they didn't convert or at least pretend to convert.

    That must mean the Aztec gods are true?



  4. Already-Turned Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2001
    star 3
    Exactly.....


    Also TFU, regarding the factual reporting by those who recorded the new testament.
    The fact that these people knew each other, were part of a rising organization and movement (the brand spanking new christian curch), and had a personal relationship with Jesus meant that they were a HIGHLY BIASED (and therefore unreliable) source. The same could be applied to whole sections. I believe a rough reporting of actual people, places and actions took place, however the biased nature of the disciples means that we must examine their reports with scepticism.

    Put it in a modern context. 40 years from now would you believe a Taliban (if it still exists) report that Osama Bin Laden was the new messiah of the arab people? Of course not! Yet it would be very similiar situation to the recording of the life of JC.

    The difference is that our mass media, information systems and most importantly education and skepticism, is far superior in our modern times!
  5. Palpazzar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    Comparing the reports of Jesus to UFO sigthings is apples and oranges. THe two cannot be put side by side.

    As to today's cults, there is another difference - the source of their beliefs.

    I will not be part of any religion that incorporates elements of Star Trek: TNG into their beliefs as the Hale-Boppers did.

    Some things are just too out there to be part of.
  6. Ender Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 1998
    star 6
    Some things are just too out there to be part of.


    Funny, that's how I feel about your cu...*ahem* religion.

  7. mister_rebo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2001
    Quite a topic! I'll throw my hat in the ring. First thought.....The vast majority of us think that there is a "right and wrong" and act accordingly to some degree of consistency - where does this come from?

  8. IellaWessiriNRI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2001
    star 4
    Ender: You're talking about exceptions. Of course there's going to be wackos. Aren't there nuts in every situation?

    Also:

    Palpazzar said:Some things are just too out there to be part of.

    Ender responded:
    Funny, that's how I feel about your cu...*ahem* religion.

    Actually... Christianity isn't that "out there." Think about it... if we assume that there is a God (just play along ok?), and that He created the earth and everything in it, as according to the Bible... doesn't it make sense that He would have established certain perameters and rules for humans to live by? And doesn't it make sense that if these rules were broken, there would be consquences or punishment? And since God is just, He must punish man. However, God is also loving. How does He reconcile both His love and His justice? By sacrificing Himself (the Son - Jesus) as a payment for our sins. Therefore the price is paid, so man no longer has to suffer for his sin. Makes sense, right? Of course, this is all based on the premise that there is a God... which we haven't successfully proved yet, nor do I think can be successfully and completely proved. That's why it's called faith. [face_plain]
  9. Doright Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 1999
    star 5
    Maybe God doesn't want to be proven. Maybe part of his test for us is to see if we can believe without proof.
    I and a lot of people I know have a strong feeling in our harts that God exists. We are not just following the crowed or letting ourselves be brainwashed. There are millions of well educated intellectual Christians who would not fall for brainwashing or other Cultist activities.
    It is something we feel. Churches do not make Christians.. Christians make Churches.

    It's not a follow the crowd thing but its a crowd coming together sort of thing. There will never be absolute proof of God until it is too late (judgement day). Until then I think it is one of our tests to see if we have faith.


  10. imzadi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 4
    And would those people be willing to be tortured and eventually executed for those claims? No, of course not, unless they were mentally unstable.

    People dying with the belief they saw someone rise from the dead makes them mentally unstable? True, Jesus is in a different category for many people, but not everyone.
  11. Ender Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 1998
    star 6
    LOL, a god comes down to die for us yet he didn't die. What a sacrifice!

    Makes perfect sense.

    I didn't realize a god could die?


    LOL, I don't know why I bother arguing.
  12. TrainingForUtopia Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2001
    star 4
    Well, He still went through the pain of it all.
  13. Already-Turned Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2001
    star 3
    Well then we've finally all agreed on one thing!!

    We cannot have proof that there is or is not a god! All the believers have admitted that theirs is faith, an unquantifiable link between knowledge and belief. So atheists linke Ender and I can't absolutely disporove god, although we can point out how unlikely it may be, and those believers can't prove existance, although they can re-afirm their faith.
    ___________________________________________

    So what does this mean for society. Does that mean I shouldn't be held to Christian ideas of morality and appropriate behaviour? Can I make my own rules? Should I not swear on the bible whilst making a declaration of truth? What about the teaching of creation (should scientists and teachers make up their minds about creationism vs evolution, and leave all theology to the clegy?)

    In the words of launch... Discuss
  14. FlamingSword Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2001
    star 6
    Already-Turned: So what does this mean for society. Does that mean I shouldn't be held to Christian ideas of morality and appropriate behaviour? Can I make my own rules? Should I not swear on the bible whilst making a declaration of truth? What about the teaching of creation (should scientists and teachers make up their minds about creationism vs evolution, and leave all theology to the clegy?)

    All members of a society should be held to the standards and practices society holds for its members. (So many of the rules are wrong and should be changed but that's another topic.) For society to function properly, it needs rules by which all its citizens abide by or get punished. It's doesn't help society if people can kill or steal without impunity. So where do those standards come from? They come from the people in charge, the ones who have the power.
    Most societies have based their moral code on their religious code. The standard for their laws and rules came from their religious beliefs. So should someone who lives in that society and does not believe in that god and those religious rules be held to them?
    Not as a religious standard only, no. But the rules of the society or country may be based on religion but they are not religion. (Now that's really arguable in many, many cases.) So should you abide by those rules? Yes
    Of course swearing on the Bible is kinda moot if you don't believe it to be anything more than any other book. Unless you see that it stands for truth and honesty. But there's really no point in swearing on the Bible if you don't believe its validity.

    The whole creation/evolution issue is a whole other matter again. I have a vague memory that there's another thread with it.
    Creation is not science. It is a theory of how the universe began. But neither is evolution entirely science. It is another theory of how the universe began. Neither can be proven and each has many different beliefs and ideals associated with it. Evolution should be taught as theory not as fact. (Although there are many scientific and even proven aspects to it. Ultimately it is just a theory.)

    But now I'm digressing from the topic of the thread :)

    The issue of God does seem to be stuck at a certain point in that it can neither be proven nor disproven. Do you think that any time in the future it will be possible to prove or disprove the existence of god or will it continue to be an individual choice or belief?


  15. IellaWessiriNRI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2001
    star 4
    LOL, a god comes down to die for us yet he didn't die. What a sacrifice!

    Makes perfect sense.

    I didn't realize a god could die?


    God (the Son) was manifested as the physical person Jesus Christ, who was fully God and fully man. His physical body died. After three days, His physical body was resurrected. That's why we say He died, then rose again.
  16. Wildwookiee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2001
    star 4
    I could try and prove to you there is a God, but first let me ask you a question...

    If I could give you all the knowledge that I have learned in my critical study of the Bible, then take you on a journey through out the universe, explaining how even nature itself through both solar eclipses, the perfectness of the Earth and moons position on the orbital plane ALL prove that there is a God, and I gave you all this, undenyably...would it change anything to you? Because if it will not make any difference, and you do not read my words to understand, but to rebut, then we are at an empass, and nothing I could say would be worth the time it would take to say it. So, If I could prove that there was a God, beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt...would you listen?

    sidenote...I seem to remember Evolution being a THEORY, because no one can prove the existance...so would you say that you have faith that it exists?
  17. stargirl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 23, 2001
    star 2
    if you have a proof of god based on reason i'm sure we'd all like to see it. if it's sound and valid and doesn't depend on an already existent belief of god, then there'll be those of us impressed. but if we find fault in your argument you can't hold it against us to rebuff it.

    :)stargirl
  18. TrainingForUtopia Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2001
    star 4
  19. Lord Bane Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    star 5
    Keep those smart alecy remarks to yourself.

    Personal foul: Ender


    Watch out folks...I'm angry today. MiamiOhio lost to Marshall...hick inbreds.
  20. TrainingForUtopia Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2001
    star 4
    "Keep those smart alecy remarks to yourself."

    Who was that directed towards?
  21. Lord Bane Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    star 5
    Consider it a broad warning for everyone to stick to the topic and not making personal remarks.
  22. Already-Turned Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2001
    star 3
    Righto Boss.


    I agree with TFU (although I didn't read you posts).

    Creationism is a broad group of many religious based theories.
    Evolution theory is a broad group of many slightly disparate scientific theories.

    Thats the difference between and atheist and a believer. While the atheist attempts to logically decide on the most likely theory, a believer must, if they stay within the confines of beliefs set out by their brand of organized religion.

    However there is more and more evidence being discovered to support some theories of evoltuion, perhaps less concrete evidence being discovered to support believers.

    Theres another topic for such deabte. Does creationism vs evolutionary theory's matter? Is YOUR belief in god depandant on the method by which the planet was created?
  23. FlamingSword Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2001
    star 6
    Creationism is a broad group of many religious based theories.
    Evolution theory is a broad group of many slightly disparate scientific theories.


    There is a big difference between religion and science in today's world. Religion is not science and science says very little about religion. Thus in a way you are comparing two very different areas. And since there are so many theories for both, it's hard to argue some of the details since not all of them agree.

    Theres another topic for such deabte. Does creationism vs evolutionary theory's matter? Is YOUR belief in god depandant on the method by which the planet was created?

    My belief is not dependant at all on how the world was created. Either way, I live my life the way I live it. Also, believing in creation doesn't preclude believing in [some form of] evolution and believing in evolution doesn't preclude believing in [some form of] creation by a divine being.
  24. Wildwookiee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2001
    star 4
    I agree that you can belive in some form of Evolution, and yet Still Believe in Creation. I know that if you look at humans today, they are taller by average now then they were even 100 years ago. Gradual evolution is a thing that does not go against my beliefs...Let me try to explain why I think that Your faith in Evolution is greater than my faith as a Christian. If you look Mathmatically, Ask yourself this. (I don't remember the exact numbers, but here we go :) ) Jesus Christ came, he was born some time between 4 B.C and 1 A.D...they really don't know. But he WAS born, many non-religious historical documents from Josephus to Babylonian texts prove that a man named Jesus walked the face of the earth. These texts also say that he did "magic" or miraculous works. In the Bible, there are 33 mesianic prophecies that are mentioned. According to Matthew, Jesus fufills those prophecies. The odds of Jesus (virgin birth aside) being born WHEN Isaiah predicted, where he did, fleeing to Egypt, ALL the while ending his life in a manner described in the Old Testament 200 years before Crucifixtion was even used. All of this was fufilled by Jesus. Now I forget how many combinations of Amino Acids there could possibly be, nor do I know how long it would take to "stumble" on the secret combination to create the first uni-celular organism...but I do know that it is an astronomical number. Mathmatically, (and if someone could give me the number of Amino Acids, and combo's that would help) It is more probable that Jesus was who he said he is, than the probablility that we are a mistake is.

    * My first question was Hypothetical. I want to know if there was proof, (I know there is, but I am not artuculate enough to debate it, but I can give you places to read), but if I could argue the God point, and win every time...would it change anything? Would you really want to entertain the thought of God existing? That's just what I wanted to know. If all we do is throw our Ideas around, without considering personally re-evaluating our own beliefs, then there is no point to argument...I'd rather talk Starwars with you fine people. :)
  25. Ender Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 1998
    star 6
    First of all, Josephus wasn't even alive when Jesus was supposedly walking the earth. He was going by verbal records and accounts.

    Plus, historians believe the Josephus text that mentions Jesus was tampered with as Josephus was a Jew yet he talks about Jesus as his messiah at the end of the text?


    This passage is called the Testimonium Flavianum, and is sometimes cited by propagandists as independent confirmation of Jesus' existence and resurrection. However, there is excellent reason to suppose that this passage was not written in its present form by Josephus, but was either inserted or amended by later Christians:


    The early Christian writer Origen claims that Josephus did NOT recognize Jesus as the Messiah, in direct contradiction to the above passage, where Josephus says, "He was the Messiah." Thus, we may conclude that this particular phrase at least was a later insertion. (The version given above was, however, known to Jerome and in the time of Eusebius. Jerome's Latin version, however, renders "He was the Messiah" by "He was believed to be the Christ.") Furthermore, other early Christian writers fail to cite this passage, even though it would have suited their purposes to do so. There is thus firm evidence that this passage was tampered with at some point, even if parts of it do date back to Josephus.

    The passage is highly pro-Christian. It is hard to imagine that Josephus, a Pharisaic Jew, would write such a laudatory passage about a man supposedly killed for blasphemy. Indeed, the passage seems to make Josephus himself out to be a Christian, which was certainly not the case.
    Many Biblical scholars reject the entire Testimonium Flavianum as a later Christian insertion. However, some maintain that Josephus's work originally did refer to Jesus, but that Christian copyists later expanded and made the text more favorable to Jesus. These scholars cite such phrases as "tribe of Christians" and "wise man" as being atypical Christian usages, but plausible if coming from a first century Palestinian Jew. Of course, a suitably clever Christian wishing to "dress up" Josephus would not have much trouble imitating his style.



    Jews then and now did not believe Jesus was the messiah. That's why they supposedly handed him over to the Romans.

    Second, could you post a link to these Babylonian texts that mention Jesus?

    I'd be interested in reading them if they are legit. Never heard of any Babylonian texts that mention Jesus.

    You've actually read them?
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