Saga Theology of the dark side

Darth_Pevra wrote

Sacrificing friends when you don't even know it's going to accomplish anything seems very shortsighted.

But the point was to prevent things from getting worse through Luke's premature departure.

YODA Decide you must how to serve
them best. If you leave now,
help them you could. But you
would destroy all for which they
have fought and suffered.

YODA Stopped they must be. On this
all depends. Only a fully trained
Jedi Knight with the Force as his
ally will conquer Vader and his
Emperor. If you end your training
now, if you choose the quick and
easy path, as Vader did, you will
become an agent of evil.

With all his failures during his training on Dagobah, Luke had demonstrated that he wasn't ready for that kind of confrontation. I would bet that not only Yoda and Kenobi were surprised (same goes for the audience) that Luke was ultimately ready to rather sacrifice his life than to join Vader.

 

He lost his hand, found out the truth about his father and his distraction of Vader + R2 helped Leia, Chewie and Lando fight another day. Not too bad compared to the alternative (them failing to flee and be executed which would turn Luke into a wreck).

Yoda was wrong and all he did was follow his vague intuitions about what is the right path. He tried to force his will on Luke but fortunately Luke would have none of it.

 

Darth_Pevra wrote

He tried to force his will on Luke but fortunately Luke would have none of it.

That's not true, didn't you read the quote I provided?

Decide you must how to serve them best.

That's another thing that sets the Jedi apart from the Sith: Freedom of will and choice! (Qui-Gon Jinn said the same to Little Annakin) and not some abstract "destiny".

Admittedly, Yoda and Kenobi tried to talk Luke out of it, which IMHO is absolutely okay. I'd go one step further and claim, that they both knew he wouldn't change his mind but provided him with the information and awareness where his road would take him.
I'm pretty confident that their appeals resonated within him, when he made the choice not to join Vader...

Besides, Luke did do nothing to help his friends escape. He arrived to late to prevent Han from being frozen and when he tried to rescue Leia, Chewie and Threepio he walked straight into the trap set for him.

It was Lando who saved his friends, not Luke. Finally, Luke had to be saved by his friends.

 

I found Yoda to be very pushy about it. My point is that it's not Yoda's decision to make, especially considering how ignorant he is about the Rebellion (he just assumes they can lose Princess Leia) and about Luke's psyche. He acts exactly as unwise and shortsighted as he did during the clone wars. And like in that time, he is very quick to sacrifice for some vague lofty higher goal. He should have just shut up his frog mouth because nothing good came out of it in that situation.

Aside from TCW I don't recall a single instant in which Yoda cares about normal people instead of Jedi and politicians. But he was super-quick to start a war when Obi, Ani and Padmé were endangered.

I never claimed he freed them. But sitting on his hands twiddling his thumbs was still not a viable option whatsoever.

 

Sorry, but I find myself unable to agree.

Leia was an important person in the Alliance as a gatherer of information, but when Alderaan was destroyed she inevitably lost that role. I have no doubt she still had connections and knew people vital for the Alliance's survival, but by the time of ESB her importance had been greatly diminished and nothing in the film really suggests otherwise.

Suffice to say I can see both sides of the argument, i.e. why Luke wants to leave and why Yoda and Ben insist he should finish his training first to be prepared for the confrontation with Darth Vader.

Yet I find myself unable to find fault with Yoda's and Kenobi's urgings.

 

I know Luke Skywalker and there is no way he could cope with leaving his friends to die. It would just create a giant opening for Vader and the Emperor to exploit, Yoda training or not. It perfectly demonstrates how these Jedi think. They would throw a leader of the alliance away on a whim as if they somehow knew Luke's life and/or soul was more important than hers.

You claimed that the Jedi follow "Light side theology: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one or the few." but there is no adequate proof for it. You all but ignored my points that the PT Jedi only ever save members of the elite and willingly sacrifice everyone else, especially the Clones who are basically child slaves.

 

I'm not a PT specialist, but IIRC they knew the first confrontation would take place on Geonosis. The council sent 200 Jedi, Yoda went to Kamino and later joined the fight with the clone troopers.

So he was going there anyway with the troops, but first decided to save the Jedi that were still alive. Nothing wrong with that, IMHO.

And most of these 200 Jedi were "sacrificed" before the clones arrived. Please bear in mind that the clone army was ordered by Darth Sidious, the Republic made use of them under Jedi leadership, and TCW revealed a lot of concern of the Jedi for their "child slaves".

 

Except that the accomplishment is that Luke stays on Dagobah and finishes his training and doesn't become a Sith Lord himself. Yes, it would hurt Luke to lose his friends, but he has to understand that this is what his friends are willing to do for him. He cannot see that and that is why he leaves. No, Yoda doesn't know for certain if it will be Luke who can do this. But Leia is out because she is captured. Luke is their only shot since he is the only one who is trained.

Luke would have learned who Vader was if he had stayed. Vader would have left Leia and Chewie behind. He only changed his mind because he needed to use them to lure Luke into the carbonite chamber.

If he wanted Luke to stay, he would have crippled the X-wing or trained Luke from birth to not have attachments.

 

Absolutely. Luke's greatness in that moment also started the awakening process in his own father of something only Luke didn't believe was long dead.

The Jedi by the end of the Republic were full of corruptions, even if they thought they were doing the right things. The story of the PT is the cautionary tale of a long ago "good" that had slowly become something that wasn't as "good" as it thought it was.


I don't know if I can ever see the Emperor's "Point of View" of the Sith being anything but evil, and I don't see how one can access the dark side without slipping into evil. But I do think the Jedi presented at the end of the Republic were a far cry from what they idealized themselves as being.

I find Obi Wan and Yoda so much humbler in the OT than in the PT from the lessons they learned.

 

this was an interesting perspective:

https://ohtze.tumblr.com/post/142722602848/jasjuliet-respainey-jollysunflora

light and dark are only metaphors, so maybe an ocean is a much better metaphor for the force?

 

I tried to read this but sadly couldn't even get through the first point without disagreeing so completely that further reading is meaningless:

NO!!
Study of the force is deeply spiritual, definitely.
My mother used to say "There is nothing wrong with belief; its when you package it up as a religion and force it on others where things go wrong."
The force is NOT a religion and the jedi are not priests .... this is proven by the fact that Qwi-gon Jin was allowed to take Anikin as an apprentice EVEN THOUGH every jedi council member disagreed (as opposed to being branded a heretic and exiled - which is how a religion would respond)
There are plenty of other examples but at the end of the day it comes down to the fact that jedi are allowed to be toooo individualistic and are allowed to keep their own personal beliefs about the force - even if they are misguided beliefs - for it to qualify as a religion.

NO!!
It is made VERY clear that force sensitive have been using their powers unconsciously their whole lives. They are ALWAYS categorized as lucky and charismatic.
Training is about learning how to consciously use the force, how to deliberately influence it. NOT about learning to use the force in the first place.

Not sure why this was said, this characterizes every human endeavor. There is nothing humans do that doesn't improve with constant practice, that doesn't need practice to stay 'sharp' at. Even geniuses can improve with practice.
The same with understanding ..... no1 truely understands anything without personally experiencing it. And even then they don't completely understand.
That said I don't disagree with this, I'm just not sure what the point is.

 

thanks for taking the time to respond borgrel

it wasn't my writing that you are quoting, i was just too lazy to do all my own thinking and found this and posted it. but anyway.

could you give a few more examples of how the force is not a religion? i think the OP wasn't referring to the force as a religion, but to the the study of the force. just like people in our world study the divine or qi, no?

i don't think qui-gon would have to be branded as a heretic because he wanted to train anakin, i don't think they have heresy in the GFFA ... in the end i suppose the concepts don't always overlap.

perhaps you would agree that the jedi study the force? that it is what they do? and the dark side as well? they study the force?

here's an explanation of what religion is

from http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=religion

i think that characterises force use as well, no?

you are right, of course, we become better through practice.understanding to me is a different quality. it does not require experience, i don't think, but its part of it. i think understanding is a deeper part of learning. i'm not sure *how* that works in detail but i'm happy to discuss it.

i don't think we have to agree on everything, i'm quite happy not to, i was interested in the dionysian and apollonian concepts of worship/study. i'm intereste din seeing the dark side as a valid way to use the force. i think the dark side, as it is portrayed in the movies is corrupted but i think in some aspects, it is also a valid approach. if that makes sense.

 

1) every (main stream) religion has a religious text (bible, coran, the torah, etc) and disagreeing with said text is heresy. there is no 'book of the force'
2) every religion requires 'worship' (normally during a gathering but some few allow solo worship) jedi do a lot of meditation, but they don't worship/praise/pray/etc to the force.
3) every religion makes claims about the afterlife and tell you what to do for the sake of ur afterlife. in star wars there were only 3 ppl he knew about a 'force afterlife' and it is never used as a stick to enforce particular behavior in the current life.
4) every religion has places of worship (not 100% sure of this) jedi have a council chamber and a school
etc.

not really IMO. they cant put the force under a microscope, they cant perform experiments and witness the reaction, they cant alter the force and study the differences. so how can they 'study' the force.
the most powerful jedi are called 'strong' in the force or 'gifted' in the force or 'close' to the force never 'learned' in the force or a 'scholar' of the force, etc.

when meditating; padawans are told to 'feel' the force or 'listen' to the force, not 'study' the force.
IMO its more about becoming 'friends' with the force than 'studying' it.

monastic vow: when becoming a jedi knight they do give an oath but it doesnt include celibacy or monasteries....
divine power: every1 is VERY clear that the force is life, a part of all living things ..... a natural power not a divine one.
reverence for gods, fear of gods: who are the gods of force?

i dont think its characterizes it very well ......

yes understanding is an integral part of learning but its also an integral part of community, conversation, language, technology, gaming, etc.
understanding is absolutely necessary for the human condition, things people dont understand get killed/destroyed or kill/destroy people. a person whose mind gets damaged to the point where they have no understanding left kill themselves or others.
but still, your comment does not explain explain the relevance of the statement, the significance it has on the topic being discussed.

of course we dont have to agree.

there are 2 possible interpretations of the force:
1) the force is a natural energy like gravity and electricity: if this is the correct interpretation then life and death are both natural and normal making the dark side valid and the reason that sith and other dark force users need to be eliminated is because they take it toooo far (which is a failing characteristic of humans - ego, greed, etc - and not a failing of the force itself). It is interesting to note that in this interpretation anikin/darth vader DID bring balance to the force .... not only did he equally represent both (and without overreaching with the negatives of the darkside btw) but he also destroyed all light and dark force users, balancing the force to none vs none.

2) the force is the energy of life: if this is correct then dark force is wrong because it involves twisting life to give death. i dont think this is the case because logically 'twisting' a natural energy to achieve its opposite would not be as 'easy' as it seems to be. If would be like making gravity push a spaceship into orbit, rather than having to fight it.

that said :- yes, i think dark is a valid use of the force and the problem comes from human mentalities not the dark force itself. soon as they have access to it, people abuse it and thats where the problem comes from.

 

borgrel

i think you are taking my posts very literal.

of course the force has no gods and no book, i'm not thick. you seem very certain about aspects of the jedi order, that i don't think are ever made obvious in the films. there might not be celibacy involved, but the recruits/members are very tightly controlled, i should think. they are recruited from birth, so all they will know is the order, it functions as a family substitute.

i think it is fair to describe the jedi as a sect, sort of like zen buddhists are a sect of buddhism. they follow certain rules, otherwise they can't be called jedi.

well, observation is a kind of study. when you study animal and human behaviour for example, you will spend your time observing. you do that without judgement. it's what meditation is as well.

you see, that is a way of describing it, a metaphor. we don't have the force in our world, so we have to help ourselves with those metaphors. the problem is that none of them fit it completely. in another post, i quoted people who compared the force to an ocean that you can wade into deeper and deeper and become consumed by it. (you didn't read that far because you found the first post so objectionable )

the way the force is presented in the films is that you can learn to control it and 'master' it. those with force-sensitivity can anyway, but then the characters put a cap on the manner of your usage, i guess, they make it a moral and emotional distinction, which seems strange considering that the force is a neutral thing. if it's the source of life, it will also bring death, that is how these things work in most theologies. maybe it's different in the GFFA, but what i took from the opening post was the idea that the apollonia/dionysian concept, or the yin and yang, are integral to each other. we cannot have creation without destruction. the excessive aspects of the dark side, the 'giving in' and 'being seduced' are mirrored in the 'holding back' and the 'control' of the light.

it's probably old hat by now but it seems that both are needed to be establish balance, which in itself is a constant negotiation.

 

Always two there are, no more, no less. A (Sith) master and an apprentice.

according to Yoda in TPM.

Now this has pretty much become canon, but I can't help but wonder whether we are looking at a severe retcon, considering the actual dialogue in ESB:

EMPEROR The Force is strong with him. The
son of Skywalker must not become a
Jedi.

VADER If he could be turned, he would
become a powerful ally.

EMPEROR Yes. Yes. He would be a great
asset. Can it be done?

VADER He will join us or die, my
master.

At first, Palpatine obviously wants to see Luke Skywalker dead (and doesn't even remotely consider him as a substitute for Vader). Then Vader suggests to turn him, so he would become an ally to which the Emperor agrees.

While I wouldn't want to exclude the possibility that Palpatine already wants Luke to become the substitute for Vader and just "plays" along, isn't Vader aware of the Rule of Two?

Essentially he suggests a triumvirate but isn't he aware that he probably signs his own death warrant? From Palpatine's point of view there can only be one apprentice and even Vader must realize that probability is high than he will choose Luke and abandon Vader.

Therefore his proposal only makes sense, if he already plans to dispose of his master, who certainly must be aware of that.

Here is my take on the conversation in plain Sith English:

PALPATINE The Force is strong with him. The
son of Skywalker must not become a
Jedi.

VADER If he could be turned, he would
become a powerful ally.

PALPATINE You mean, you want him to become your apprentice, so you'll murder me and take my place as master.

VADER That's the idea.

PALPATINE But if you fail to turn him I get the chance to do so, but then you'll be the one who's getting disposed of.

VADER Fair enough.

 

It's not quite a retcon. In TCW, we know that Dooku was serving alongside Maul and under Sidious. But he wasn't a Sith yet. Not until after the Battle of Naboo when he was anointed as Darth Tyranus. During the war, Assaj Ventress served under the Sith and for a brief period, so did Savage Opress. But then Opress was kicked to the curb for his weakness and when Palpatine sensed that Ventress was becoming too strong, he ordered Dooku to terminate her. She survived for a while longer, but she was never a Sith. Maul tried to branch off on his own with his brother until Palpatine formally excommunicated him. Then we come to ROTS.

"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 41.

Which is why we saw the duels on Tatooine, Naboo, Oba Diah and aboard the Dreadnought. Each time, Dooku kept trying to goad Anakin into losing control, but they were always interrupted because of Obi-wan and Ahsoka, or a need to escape. Then we had the second kidnapping of Palpatine which is where it all fell into place. This then leads us to Vader's use of the Inquisitors who were not powerful enough to overthrow Vader and Sidious and were eliminated by either the surviving Jedi or by Maul, or someone else. That takes us to TESB.

"At this point, Vader’s plan really, now that he knows he’s his son, is to convince him to come with him. Join the dark side and together they’re going to overthrow the Emperor, which is the thematic devices used through the whole movies in terms of the Sith, which is Sith Lords are usually no more than two because if there are three, then two of them will gang up on one to try to become the dominate Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn’t been debilitated and now he’s half machine and half man, so he’s lost a lot of the power of the Force, and he’s lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful then the Emperor. But Luke hasn’t. Luke is Vader’s hope. His motives at this point are purely evil. He simply wants to continue on what he was doing before which is get rid of the Emperor and make himself Emperor. He only sees his son as a mechanism for the ambition. His mad lust of power."

--George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.

"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

"The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

Vader is well aware that he is treading on dangerous ground as he remembered what happened to his predecessor, but he also knows that Sidious is not above having someone serve alongside them for a time. Likewise, Sidious knows that Vader would try to overthrow him, but the prize of having a more complete Skywalker is too tempting to pass over. He may be stronger than he was following his injuries on Mustafar, but he's nowhere near his true potential. But Luke can get there.

 

Edit: Double post.

 

Exactly my point: Palpatine wants to see the son of Skywalker dead (strange if he considers replacing Vader), Vader makes a suggestion he must be aware of will either result in his son's death (what Palpatine wants) or his own (which can't possibly be his desire).

After the PT and the Rule of Two, it absolutely makes no sense for Vader to come up with his counter-proposal. After Palpatine said

The Force is strong with him. The
son of Skywalker must not become a
Jedi.

Vader's reply should then have been "Yes, my master" (while he actually pursued a different plan of his own).

The moment Vader said

If he could be turned, he would
become a powerful ally.

Palpatine's reply should have been "I wonder whether your feelings are clear on the matter, Lord Vader?"

 

VADER: "Luke. You can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny. Join me, and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son. Come with me. It is the only way."


Thus his point is that he will train Luke and then the two of them will kill him. Didn't you read what Lucas said? Palpatine did want Luke dead, but then he realizes that he could pit the two against each other and the one who lives becomes his Apprentice. He only chooses to kill Luke at the end when he passes his Jedi trial and refuses to kill his father.

And as I also pointed out, Dooku worked with the Sith before the Battle of Naboo. And Ventress did during the war.

 

darth-sinister

It becomes obvious, that I perhaps somewhat lack the ability to make my position clear. Try to travel back into time (i.e. before the PT and this new - ! - "Rule of Two ") and put yourself in the shoes of a 1980 spectator.

It's pretty clear that the Emperor regards Luke as a threat and wants to see him dead. Yet Vader suggests that he could become a powerful ally, so there'd be three Siths or a triumvirate ruling the galaxy with the Emperor as top dog. This 1980 Emperor realizes "the more, the merrier" and accepts Vader's proposal.

But Vader has other plans, he wants Luke to join him exclusively so that he himself can become Emperor. And even by 1983 it's not crystal clear - until Vader lies on the floor - whether the Emperor really wanted Luke to kill Vader (Vader didn't object at all?). It's rather the "survival of the fittest", and Vader - as the one ending up on the floor, realizes he no longer is the fittest and thus has outlived his purpose to the Emperor.

LUKE I will not turn...and you'll be forced to kill me.

VADER If that is your destiny.

The whole point isn't / wasn't about a "Rule of Two", it's about either Luke joining them (so they'll become a triumvirate) or suffer death as a Jedi.

Now, with the PT, Lucas introduces the "Rule of Two", not necessarily a retcon (given the negative connotations) but rather a premise change.

In hindsight, however, the "Rule of Two" - we assume both Vader and the Emperor are fully aware of it - doesn't really work with the (original) dialogue in the holo room aboard the Executor in ESB because essentially Vader is delivering his own death sentence:

If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally.

According to the new "Rule of Two" Vader is either telling his master (thinly-veiled) that he wants to overthrow him with the help of his son or that he accepts the prospect that he will be replaced by Luke.

In a nutshell: It's either death for Vader because of treason or him being replaced.

 

Except as I pointed out, there can be more than two at a time, but only for a short period of time. They both know that they would betray the other when the first opportunity arises. Lucas even points out to Kasdan that Vader still wants to turn Luke before Palpatine can get Luke to kill him, when the ROTJ story meetings were going on. That Vader was still thinking of a long range plan, but acknowledges that he needs Palpatine to get there.

 

i take the rule of two to mean that the relationship between master and apprentice is exclusive.

Lt. Hija

i like this a lot!

i think the writers (er, lucas) had to say why there are only ever two, because why not make a larger order? what is it with the dark side that only so few people are ever... strong enough? capable enough? because that motif of being replaced sort of continues on through the ST now i think.

beyond that i kinda dig that the master is always an older man preying on and grooming a younger man. i do wonder how that plays out wrt rey, whether she'll be made a pawn in that relationship as well.